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Navneet said...
We are running a spiritual society, Shri Ram Chandra Mission. It was started by my Grandfather, Shri Ram Chandra ji maharaj of Shahjahanpur. He left his physical body in 1983. After leaving his physical body One of his disciples came up with a forged nomination which evident from the document itself to a layman with typewriting used twice and even the printed name of socity of emblem are not in aligned to each other as is in case of Printed letter heads. Moreso no where in text has he been nominated as the President of the society Shri Ram Chandra Mission. These are onle some of the startling facts of the document.There was however a nomination given by the founder in name of my father Sh. Umesh Chandra which was in line with constitution & byelaws of the society then registered way back in 1945. He was accepted as president in 1984 by the Managing Committee of the society.Law of UP Society Act changed in 1984 to election since then we are following the law and after Sh. Umesh Chadra ji's unnatural death in 2003 his son Navneet Kumar have been elected as the President by the Elected body.Atrocities of the disciple claiming President ship in 1984 increased ever since I have taken over. he started a parallel society in the same name with its Head Quarters at Chennai.We are seeking justice ever since 1984. but are not getting the same from all the courts because of reasons below:He has appointed sitting and ex judges of Allahabad High court in his legal committee, Sitting & Ex IAS officers, Businessman, Foreign Nationals, and Retd. IPS Officers who seemingly are not only influencing the judicial but also Administrative Authorities, who on our face agree that we are talking legal but who either dismiss out petitions or give judgements/orders against us. Many a times if u notice the findings they are in our favour but judgement is not. Moreover he has aides of fund and money from India and abroad too.He claims himself as Guru but as per the literature of my grandfather there shall be no more Guru other than him. Others shall be his successors and he shall act through the spiritual representative. Moreover even his literature and his last letter clearly states that he has not appointed the Alleged disciple as his successor and that he has nominated his spritual representative in Direct ine of succession which was as per the constitution & Bye law of the society and the act at the time of his physical demise.Moreso the alleged disciple has also changed the constitution to suit him, but the change fortunately has not been accepted by the Registrar of Societies. Aides of the said alleged claimant have not only harassed us mentally but also attempted on our lives several times as the alleged disciple had done with his Guru. Which is clearly evident from the notorised last letter of the founder president Shri Ram Chandra ji Maharaj of Shahjahanpur. He has been misguiding the public at large since over Two decades now. This is being continued due to delayed justice.Recently last year his aides Ex IPS Officer, Ex IAS Officer and Ex Judicial Officers came in into our Ashram with 150 people and attacked wife of Sh. Umesh Chandra, who is above 60 years of age and Sh. Amresh Kumar the Ashram Incharege who is about 65 years of age in presence of Police security which was provided by then DM & SP of Shahjahanpur. On the plea of the victims being beaten by the crowd also the police did not move a wee bit and people who opposed were beaten and pushed out of Ashram by Police officials. The police and Administration of Shahjahanpur, UP supported them there was a call from Mrs. Umesh Chandra's son to the SP too when the incident was taking place as someone informed her son about the incident on his mobile, who was at Mumbai at that point of time. SP refused to offer help and stated I cannot do anything sorry. and he later stopped picking up his phone.Both sufferred injuries and they were taken by our advocate who arrived at the incident spot a while later were taken toand went to the Civil Hospital where the Medical report clearly states that they were beaten had bruises and with possibility of internal injury. The victims went to the police station to file FIR they refused to register saying No One in Shahjahanpur will file your FIR. They faxed the FIR to the DM copy to the Chief Secretary of UP and later even to the court. But the FIR is not filed as yet. The case is pending at this point of time too. There have been incidents of even placing High Court of Allahabad orders in district court even before the hearing of case at the High court took place and the order was released. This was reported with proof to the CJI. CJI has ordered enquiry which also we know would die its unnatural death as other enquiries of the President of India, Vice President of India, The Prime Minister of India has died its unnatural injustice death. If such a a person claims to be spiritual GURU like personality how humanely is he acting can be visible but no action whatsoever by the Authorities, People at large or even Media is taking place.We have a feeling that since Media is not getting active even after our regular followups and requests to enter into the issue as a common man cannot even live peacefully in this country with citizens who are responsible for degrading the system of the society and the country.So where is the justice without media intervention as the justice is in hands of the higher ups and people having contacts in this country.We have left things to Supreme court today hoping that justice may be given at this Apex court atleast.Navneet
January 18, 2007 12:17 PM
Anonymous said...
What can you give to people as a representative of Shri Ram Chandraji (your grandfather).
February 10, 2007 12:37 PM
Anonymous said...
Please can you tell me if it is possible to visit Shri Ram Chandra Ashram in Shahjahanpur these days?Who is looking after it?I have stayed both there & at Babuji's family house in the past.Best wishes.
February 11, 2007 10:04 AM
Anonymous said...
P.S.Are any of Babuji's original publications of his books still available from the Publications Dept. at Shahjahanpur?If so, how may they be obtained, please?What has happened to Babuji's family house at Shahjahanpur, please?Sincerely.
February 11, 2007 10:09 AM
Alexis said...
Hi Navneet,I'm Alexis mielkarski and I try to understand the REAL HISTORY of Sahaj Marg and SRCM with some other friends like me.Our blogs are,- in english : http://4d-don.blogspot.com or http://innercircleofsrcm.blogspot.com- in french : http://pourquevivelesahajmarg.blogspot.com or http://shriramchandramission.blogspot.comI think you have some very important informations to speak for all the abhyasis. Could you come on our blogs and speak with us ?We have a lot of questions...RegardsAlexis
February 13, 2007 3:20 PM
4d-don said...
Hi Navneet...My sincerest sympathies to you and your family for all the problems around the Mission. My condolences to you and your family for the "passing on" of your father, from me, personally, and from my family in Canada who have been negatively impacted by SRCMtm since Chari's take over. It has divided our family of 35 years...I was a member of the Mission, in the olden days, when it still had a "tinge" of "spiriruality" as there were many "true seekers" (philosophers, thinkers, able to converse in true Raja Yoga fashion) in the group and that created a pleasant "aura". Spiritual?? Maybe beneath all the "intrigues" there is in all of us, an iota of "God-liness", but for most, including those in the Mission, it is hidden very deep within the "psyche".I always considered your grandfather a 'fellow" pilgrim and not my MASTER! I did not know your father. But Chari??? I met, and I read his "condition" and I will not say in "mixed" company!! lol His actions and his own words have spoken loudly for themselves on his behalf. I will leave History and the ONE's law of "cause and effect" (karma) deal with those who "harm" me, intentional or not!It is too bad that the Mission has been taken over by the "Plutocrats" (the wealthy, and their acolytes, the wealth and fame chasers)!! It once had some "potential" but once spirituality starts accumulating "material", like all pools of "matter" (wealth) they attract the Materialists. And they are ruthless, opportunistic, arrogant, and ignorant to the plight of the poor, the "unclean" and the yearning of the ONE "spirit" in all of us.It (the Mission) will continue to attract some, the most "Naive" in our cultures who see "exotic" India as the seat of "spirituality". But we now feel that the ONE is everywhere and everywhen and cannot be contained in one culture or country. If you need us, please contact us!!at:Our World from Another Dimension4d-donhttp://4d-don.blogspot.com/
February 14, 2007 5:05 AM
Anonymous said...
Dear Navneet,It is a great pleasure to have your kind reply and to hear from you again. It is certainly good to have those answers which you have already given to some of the questions raised, and I very much look forward to seeing the documents etc. which you are intending to post on the web. With most grateful thanks.Yours affectionately,B.
Anonymous said...
Dear Navneet,So sorry to hear of the sad death of your Father, Umesh - may he rest in peace. You say that he met an "unnatural" death - perhaps you can say something more about this?Also, are you able to give out further details of the "notorised last letter" of Babuji which you mention as, allegedly, evidencing an attempt on his life, possibly by an "alleged disciple"? This and the other matters which you describe are obviously of great interest and importance to myself and others who have benefitted by Babuji's life & legacy, who knew him and loved him.Perhaps if you can do so without risk either to yourself or your family, & where there is no question of matters being "sub judice" you may be able to provide some further enlightenment.Affectionately yours,B.
February 15, 2007 5:12 AM
Anonymous said...
Hi NavneetWe would love to see the documents you mention, specially the letter of succession Babuji, your grandfather allegedly signed, giving the succession of the SRCM to Chariji. This letter has been kept secret for quite some time now. Cyril...
February 17, 2007 10:41 PM
Anonymous said...
Dear Navneet,What the hell is going on in the organisation of Shri Ram Chandra Mission/Sahaj Marg? What are all these secrets and lies? Will someone please tell us? All we want is some truth - just give us some truth.Yours, J - A Concerned Abhyasi.
February 19, 2007 2:43 AM
Navneet said...
Answer to Anonymous dated Fruary 10 2007I still abide by the everlasting fact that Babuji is the only and the last Guru of Shri Ram Chandra Mission. As dictated by his master Shri Lalaji maharaj, which is clearly mentioned in his diaries. Original of which is with us, and is being Published in 7 volumes as Divine Order, Volume 1 to 7.I am just a succesor representative who is not a master but will be able to make you fell what you felt during Babuji's time. If you have those inner eyes to understand and feel the spiritual transmission. Also make you feel the presence of Babuji.Only thing which is necessary is that you should be able to feel the actual spiritual transmission What SRCM is known for. Which I guarantee others are not able make you feel.Answer to Anonymous dated February 11th 2007 at 10.04 AMPlease read the comment written by me in detail. Presently the Ashram is not in the hands of the notorious disciple and his associates as of now.Hence presently if you are a true abhyasi of Babuji maharaj alone then please do not visit the ashram.Answer to Anonymous dated February 11th 2007 at 10.09 AMOriginal Publications of Babuji's books are available with us.Babuji's family house is still intact at Shahjahanpur.Answer to Alexis, Cyril & Others dated 13th Feb 2007 to 19th Feb., 2007You can post on this site I shall answer all your questions.Please note that every word written in my comment has authentic proof behind it. Which also includes publications as news in newspapers of the country too.The prrofs of the same shall be on the net in afew days from now for all of you to gauge and understand the reality on your own.RegardsNavneet
February 21, 2007 8:29 PM
Anonymous said...
Dear Navneet,It is a great pleasure to have your kind reply and to hear from you again. It is certainly good to have those answers which you have already given to some of the questions raised, and I very much look forward to seeing the documents etc. which you are intending to post on the web. With most grateful thanks.Yours affectionately,B.
February 22, 2007 2:08 AM
Navneet said...
To see the documents see website www.srcmshahjahanpur.org.inRegardsNavneet
February 22, 2007 10:42 PM
Anonymous said...
Dear Navneet,Thank you so much for this. It is with a sense of relief and gratitude that I see your web-site.However, the letters that you reveal are so astonishing that I am currently dumbfounded. While digesting this, I await further news & developments with interest.Blessings to you for your courage.Affectionately, B.
February 23, 2007 5:21 AM
Anonymous said...
Navneet - Thank you.What address should we write to for books, please?I too am very grateful for your web-site & postings & v. pleased to see that you do not diverge from Babuji's teachings.
February 23, 2007 5:58 AM
4d-don said...
Hi Navneet...I would add my voice of gratitude for your strenght and courage...I am dumbfounded also at the arrogance and gall of those who "desire" to be Master so badly while preaching "detachment" for the rest of us...It is a "nationalist" rather than a "spiritual" attachment and will not survive in a "global" environment.Thank you so much...I will digest the material and phrase some enquiries later...if need be!!Information will set us free...With the new TOOL of the INTERNET, it will be a little more difficult for the "PLUTOCRATS" (acolytes of PLUTO) to fool the Masses again...That age of PLUTO (wealth) is over...It is now the age for the understanding of TIME, (the great Illusion or destroyer) Chronos (Greek), the realm of (Roman)Saturn, the planet...Safely tucked inside the ONE (God) where we live...4d-don...
February 23, 2007 10:30 AM
Anonymous said...
Salutations Navneet KumarI wish to express my gratitude and add my voice to all the others in these comments to commend you on your"speaking out" in a forth-right manner.Open-ness is certainly one of the main attributes of a spiritual life. Respect for the life of all is another that should not be shuffled to the side. Those who do not respect the disciples, also do not respect the Master. This has been our concern since the take-over of the SRCMtm by this gang of businessmen, that they use the abhyasis rather than respect them.May you prevail and may you be blessed. I know you already are.Cyril Borg
February 24, 2007 12:37 AM
Anonymous said...
Dear Navneet,It is understood that there was a court case/cases concerning the succession following Babuji's mahasamadhi. What were the legal judgements given out do you know? Can they be made public? Have all these matters been argued out in Court, and, if so, what have been the results? There is a real dispute here which, I imagine, should properly be settled legally. What do your legal advisors say? Can the allegations be substantiated sufficiently in law? If there have been these serious wrongs, then they should be righted, but it sounds to me as though appeal to law may be the only way to achieve such a result.With best wishes.Affectionately, B.
February 24, 2007 4:21 AM
Anonymous said...
Navneet - Please notify with regard to the injuries caused to your respected Mother, Amresh, and any other injured parties. Are they now recovered? Very best wishes to them. What is the progress in their attempts to obtain redress/justice for their treatment?This is a sorry business. Who actually owns the Ashram/land/buildings etc.? This seems to be a real legal tangle. May you be heard sufficiently to gain the necessary support & advice. I am anxious for the safety & well-being of Babuji's grandson, daughter-in-law, family, faithful adherents & others.
February 24, 2007 5:49 AM
Anonymous said...
Navneet - Have you got all the necessary legal advice? What is made of the documentary evidence that you have produced? Do you also have witness statements? What is the appointed Commitee doing to support your claims? What other evidence has Chari produced in support of his claims that this should have won the judgements that you mention? Why have Babuji's wishes been ignored? Can you appeal any of these judgements?I know well that legal services are expensive - are you able to have reputable people to take up your case?Best - J.
February 24, 2007 6:14 AM
Anonymous said...
I have seen the so called nomination of chari & it is matter of short time only that courts will decide on fraudulency of it finally .Umesh bhai did not claim president ship of srcm till he came across the last letter of babuji some 10-11 yrs after samadhi of babuji.This letter was sent by jagirdar ji very late to umesh bhai.In addition babuji has also advised umesh bhai to keep low for 10 yrs by which time all the undesirable abhysis will switch over to chari's side.Legal wheels are in motion now & things should crystallize shortly.
February 24, 2007 12:31 PM
4d-don said...
Navneet...Some abhyasi from Australia added this to the Wikipedia Article "Shri Ram Chandra Mission"...Dispute over the lineage of Shri Ram Chandra Mission (R) ResolvedParthasarathi Rajagopalachari's succesion of Sri Ram Chandraji of Shahjahanpur was challenged and after more than 20 years of trail, the Supreme court of India has declared Parthasarathi Rajagopalachari as the President of Sri Ram Chandra Mission(R).Parthasarathi Rajagopalachari has anonouned Bhattar Ajay Kumar of Kolkata, India as his successor, who would be the Presidant of Sri Ram Chandra Misssion(R) and the spiritual guide of the followers of Sahaj Marg(R), under Sri Ram Chandra Mission(R) after him.(see "Securing the Future of the Mission" a video transcript of proceedings at Tiruppur of Tamilnadu, India on 30th April 2005, at SRCM)I adde this...(reference above not available...accurate citation with link needed)Can you give me some referenced information that this statement is not accurate...Has the Indian courts decided in favour of Chari?Does that include your SRCM Shahjahanpur and the Ashram?Thank you for your referenced information...4d-don
February 24, 2007 2:55 PM
.... Anon said...
Dear 4d-donThis will help you decide.If you feel chari has been declared president please refer to the Website of Supreme Court of India for more clarity and then you will hush off this feeling that Chari has been declared president.For more clarity please go to the official website of the Apex court of the country. Supreme Court of India. at the following address and look for http://courtnic.nic.in/supremecourt/temp/ac661900p.txtYou will be clear if Chari is the President of Shri Ram Chandra Mission or not. Judgement is still avaited as of date and orders have been reserved.If a person who is himself is in doubt nominates somebody. All intelligent people can make out how much would such a nomination stand.....Anon
February 25, 2007 4:22 PM
Navneet said...
Mother & Shri Amresh kumar are fine now. Except for the fact that Sh. Amresh Kumar is now listening things loud. Think his ear has been affected.Ashram is in name of Shri RAm Chandra Mission and not in name of any Individual. But, presently as per the fact stated earlier yes it is in possession of Chari's people.There are cases going on in courts. Yes some body has posted an article regarding the case in supreme court. It has been heard on 6th & 7th Feb recently and Yes order is awaited.RegardsNavneet
February 25, 2007 4:30 PM
4d-don said...
Hi Navneet...Thank you for the link to the Supreme Court of India. I have adjusted the article to reflect your info...If I may be permitted to pass on a small comment on your site from another blogger, so as to add clarity.The quote by Lalaji on your new site, as it was apparently not written by Lalaji "in the flesh", while living on this plane of material existence, but by Babuji through his "medium-ship", the reference should reflect that and read something akin to:"Lalaji, through the medium-ship of Babuji" or "Babuji, as channeled to him by Lalaji"This is just my HPOV and I am repeating what was brought to my attention by another blogger.In respect and with all the blessings from the ONE (what some call God)!!4d-don
February 26, 2007 1:07 AM
Anonymous said...
Thanks, Navneet, & all dear brothers & sisters for this useful information. I am so glad that we have been able to establish some of the facts at last. It is good to know that matters have not been settled in the way suggested by the Australian abhyasis's posting, which is only further divisive, but that there is yet some chance of sanity prevailing in all this. Babuji established the Ashram for us all, not for the use of one or other faction to the exclusion of others. I look forward to the time when I may be able to visit there again under his aegis & in the care of those who share in & remain faithful to his legacy.Affectionately.
February 26, 2007 7:47 AM
Anonymous said...
When Babuji first came to the U.K. he said that he had not come to find disciples but to make masters. Let us therefore unite in the spirit of service & brotherhood, as he wished (& wishes) & give up this unedifying spectacle of struggling for some material power or gain.
February 26, 2007 8:04 AM
Anonymous said...
TEN COMMANDMENTS OF SAHAJ MARG1. Rise before dawn. Offer your prayer and puja (worship) at the fixed hours, preferably before sunrise, sitting in one and the same pose. Have a separate place and 'asan'(seat)for worship.Purity of mind and body be specially adhered to.2. Begin your puja, with a prayer for spiritual elevation, with a heart full of love and devotion.3. Fix up your goal which should be 'Complete Oneness' with God. Rest not until the ideal is achieved.4. Be plain and simple, to be identical with Nature.5. Be truthful. Take miseries as divine blesings for your own good and be thankful.6. Know all people as brethren and treat them as such.7. Be not revengeful for the wrongs done by others. Take them with gratitude, as heavenly gifts.8. Be happy to eat in constant divine thoughts whatever you get, with due regard to honest and pious earnings.9. Mould your living so as to rouse a feeling of love and piety in others.10. At bed time, feeling the presence of God, repent for the wrongs committed. Beg forgiveness in a suppliant mood, resolving not to allow repetition of the same.
February 26, 2007 8:22 AM
Anonymous said...
Who was with Babuji when he died? And in the days leading up to that time? How was he, and what did he say?Yours,B.
February 26, 2007 8:44 AM
Anonymous said...
Considering the would-be importance of Chari's letter, and Babuji's customary attention to detail, this document seems strangely informal. In my experience, Babuji generally dictated his letters to a secretary or an associate at Shahjahanpur, so I would wonder who else was involved at the time, and who Chari cites as other witnesses? Such a document would be one of the most vital that Babuji ever wrote and it seems somewhat unlikely and out-of-character that it should be so casual, vague and almost off-hand in tone and content.Others have mentioned the lack of reference to Lalaji, in whose name the Mission was founded, and this certainly might strike one as odd.It is mentioned elsewhere that Babuji was in the habit of leaving a few blank signed pages of letterhead for his associates when he was away, and that at some point three of these went missing - a matter which Babuji apparently reported to the police. The implications were therefore obviously serious.Again, in my experience, Babuji was usually much clearer, more to the point and unambiguous in his pronouncements than Chari's letterwould indicate.Even if it were correct,Chari's document would appear to be superceded by the subsequent letters, which are more formal in the way one might expect, and have, since or at the time (I do not know which) been officially stamped.
February 27, 2007 3:21 AM
Anonymous said...
Babuji said in 1982 that sadly no one had yet come up to the mark to be successor. He blamed himself for this shortcoming. I cannot recall his exact words, but something similar is also written in one of his books or papers -the exact reference is not currently to hand.The division in the Mission has, in my feeling, come about mainly from the promotion of Chari as "Master". Babuji routinely called Lalaji, his own teacher, "Master" or "My Master", but I believe that sometimes the expression referred more to the Divine that others might more usually call "God". It is said that Babuji became very angry one day when somebody suggested that Lalaji was dead, since to him this was impossible. Indeed, as has been mentioned elsewhere, Babuji routinely communed with his Master during meditation and in the "superconscious state" etc.In the same way, to those devotees of Babuji he also is not dead. Although he may no longer be in the physical body to those who practise his system of meditation and constant remembrance, he is very much alive, and a continuing presence in their lives. Indeed, I may say personally that he continues to guide me every step of the way. My daily practice, as he suggested, is to do what I do for the Master, and at the same time thinking that the Master himself is doing it. This is a spiritual exercise, and the beneficial effects of it can be tasted and experienced, but cannot easily be expressed otherwise - at least not in my own present capacity.In the past, I have several times heard Chari say that he was not a Master, and ask people not to call him Master. Yet, in spite of thisnumbers of his adherents persisted in calling him so at every opportunity. This disobedience in his followers automatically led to difficulties with those members of the Mission who considered Babuji their "Master", and whose practice revolved around him alone. In my experience, many of the abhyasis, especially the newer ones who had never met Babuji, became very fervent, and almost agressive, in trying to persuade others that the torch had now been passed to Chari, indicating that everyone should now somehow shift their allegiance to the new "Master" from the old.In my opinion this showed a fundamental misunderstanding of this system of Raj Yoga. However, many persons persisted in it, so that eventually a divide opened up, as those who could not accept Chari as "Master" were considered as somehow outsiders, and even heretics. This even though Chari himself continued to acknowledge only Babuji as his own Master.I believe that Chari added to the discomforture of the original abhjasis by making changes to the system that Babuji had instigated. For instance, sittings 'in absentia' had been a key factor in the original practice of Sahaj Marg, and many had benefitted greatly from this. Yet Chari effectively "withdrew permission" for these distance sittings. Babuji had instigated Sahaj Marg so as to fit in with modern life, and the distance sittings were very helpful in this, as often time and distance constraints prevented one from being with a preceptor in person. Again, in my own experience, there is very little diminution of the transmission given over distance, if any, and indeed much of Babuji's own work was done in this way.Much of what was going on reminded me of evangelical or fundamentalist Christianity, where people are told that only if they "take Jesus into their hearts" can they be "saved". There was the same sort of fierce fervour that adherents of most fundamentalist religions seem to develop. Other developments too seemed to be against the spirit of Babuji's teachings, when he usually stated that "Love, of course, was at the root", or that "Love alone is a dynamic thing."Somehow these divisions must be healed and bridged. Babuji intended the Ashram at Shahjahanpur for the use of all abhyasis. There is a need for an administration, of course, where a building and its upkeep are involved, but surely this would better be done by some sort of elected committee or board of trustees (if necessary serving for set terms), who have the interests of Sahaj Marg itself, and the Shri Ram Chandra Mission at large, rather than those whose actions, whether by ignorance or design, tend to serve their own aims rather than those of the whole.Those who wish only to continue developing their own systems or interpretations of Sahaj Marg, in defiance of what it is, might be better served to consider adopting another name and title and leave those who sincerely wish to continue in this system to practice in peace in the place which Babuji provided.Tolerance should be at the core of our practice, and we should find ways to live peacefully together, not create further emnities, divisions, hatreds and confusions.
February 27, 2007 4:37 AM
4d-don said...
To all...Please sign you comments with some type of userid or AKA (also known as), so we are not left with a bunch of "anonymous" with no other way to distinguish between all the "anonymous-es"It does not have to be your real name...Thanks...don...
February 27, 2007 6:03 AM
Anonymous said...
Dear Navneet,So glad to hear that your respected Mother and Shri Amresh are making good recoveries, and I hope that the latter's hearing will soon be returned to normal.It seems to me most disgraceful that such damages should be inflicted and that such public brawling should take place in my own dear Master's Ashram, and that this should be done, apparently, in the name of Sahaj Marg and of my Master's Mission.Judging by much that has been heard, said and written, these and a number of other persons seem to have been giving the Mission a bad name, far and wide, for some time now, and it is lamentable to know of many people's perplexing and painful experiences within the organisation, and of their wounds and hurts, both physical and psychological.I do not know what system of Yoga, if any, that these bullying people have been practising, but judging from the results in their behaviour I can hardly think that it is the path that Babuji taught.Both Babuji and Lalaji laid emphasis on the need for morality as a basis for behaviour in our order, and also courtesy.Such persons are giving a very poor example to others, and such behaviour is to be deplored. It is not be fitting for our sangstha. Those responsible should examine the effect that they are having and make the necessary adjustments.Sincerely,Reynard.
February 28, 2007 4:58 AM
Anonymous said...
Many years ago, when Babuji first came to Europe, I remember seeing him seated, a small figure on a dais, flanked by three of the "big beasts" of the Mission at that time: Dr Hans Gangloff, Andre Poray and Chari. These three all spoke loudly and at some length while Babuji continued sitting quietly in the middle. As I watched, seeing both the sincerity and the proud egos of these three men, each of whom was obviously used to commanding authority, but each of whom was actually there because of their attraction and subserviance to the modest man in their midst, I recalled that Lalaji had told Babuji that he wanted "lions not lambs". I was struck to see these apparently strong, powerful people yet held in thrall, and it made me feel awed and proud that the slight figure of my Master, with his "forceless force" and "powerless power", who saw himself as a servant to others, was yet, in reality, the Master. These "senior" abhyasis could not avoid giving the impression of bringing their backgrounds with them - perhaps competitiveness, jealousies and jockeying for position, yet their helpless love for Babuji held them all in check. Rather than being critical, I felt proud then that my Mission should attract such large characters, not naturally weak, gullible, easily influenced or led. Babuji held them all spellbound, and their devotion reined them in. Where are they now? Babuji has said that it is not every moth that can immolate or burn itself on a dead flame.Yours,T.S.
February 28, 2007 5:33 AM
4d-don said...
Hi all...This is my POV as a 64 yrs old ex-abhyasi from the time of Babuji and the husband in a family of 35 years, now a "divided" family for three years since my wife became an abhyasi, four years ago. My experience and my research and comment are on my blog...http://4d-don.blogspot.com/One does not have to be a great "seer" or a "prophet" to see Chariji, his ego, and his effect on Sahaj Marg, the families of abhyasis, and on the MISSION. He is in competition with all other religious and secular "egos" who write their own "autobiography" and insist (or allow) on celebrating their own birthday. The desire to leave a "big footprint" (be worshipped) is what spirituality (including Chari) calls "selfish desires" and calls it something to "get rid of". Kim Jong Il of South Korea has only a "one day celebration" with children singing the praises of the "Leader" while some other children in the countryside go "hungry". Even the empirialist Holy Roman Catholic Church and many Christians only have a one-day birthday celebration (Christmas) for their Master and 40 days for "penance" or "austeries" (lent) as in Raja Yoga...There is no such period of "austerities" in Sahaj Marg but a "three-day bash" with a request for 1,000.00 US from every abhyasis so as to be "first" to receive a "mystery" gift FROM the GURU... (a book? a blessing? Spiritual Capitalism?)That is "visible" ego, and the un-caring philosophy of the Mission as spoken in the Chari's speeches, reflects that ego, specially when so many are suffering in our world. No sex please, but lots of "Eating" and many "houses" (real estate) with SRCMtm. The Mission divides families but displays little or no "caring" about the poor except as a way to get "privileges" for themselves also, such as the Medical services program for the abhyasis in the name of "charity"...One can see how the "guidance" from Sahaj Marg since Chari has not been "uniting" and "harmonious" and since Chari wants to call other religions (Hinduism and Christianity) "corrupt" (see the article on Wiki) one can compare the MISSION to the corrupt "Medici's" period in the Holy Roman Catholic Church that brought about a "reformation" and a "democratization" accompanied by a loss of power of this pyramidal and autocratic feudal remnants of the Roman Empire. The Mission now is "feudal" with the various clans vying for power.Sahaj Marg (Spirituality) in the hands of the Plutocrats (the wealthy) becomes dogmatic (to be obeyed without "logic"), hence, religious and divisive and is going down the same path as other religions and will have to face a "reformation" period and a "democratization" period. We could give SRCMtm the same "name" that Chari gave the other relgions: "corrupt?"...But no! Let us be kinder and call it "lost". I wonder if the UNITED NATIONS DPI program is reading these blogs or will anyone make it aware of them??....SRCMtm is not "democratic" by my standard...It will only taint the UN and its DPI program as it "disempowers" women to traditional roles of "only service" (food, clean, etc..) without the ability to become "Masters" or "representatives" of the Society...That is not in agreement with the UN agenda and does not promote gender equality....I can show (with documents) what control is "Canadian" in the SRCM (Canada), with 7 out of 11 directors appointed by Chari's or his clan and not even "Canadians". And all the money is supposed to remain in the country where it was "raised"? ...that is the line that the abhyasis are told...any forensic auditors out there? Who is guarding the guards? You gotta laugh b'cause it's not funny! "Spirituality unites, religion divides"...Who said that? Who repeated it?4d-don...
February 28, 2007 7:44 AM
Anonymous said...
Hi,As I understand it, there are spiritual systems allied to Sahaj Marg that sometimes recommend meditation on the "beloved" in whatever chosen form may be wished. Babuji recommended meditation on the form of the Master when this began to occur naturally. He continually stressed the need for finding a Master of the highest calibre, presumably having observed that continued meditation on a flawed or corrupt form would automatically lead to poor, if not disastrous, results.Barcelona.
March 1, 2007 3:14 AM
Navneet said...
Yes! Babuji had done a will and got it refistered in court ay back in 1976 stating that he had lost 4 signed papers and there are chances of its misuseNavneet
March 1, 2007 1:12 PM
Navneet said...
The meeting referred to in 1984 was a meeting which took place on 6th & 7th February 1984.The copy of the minutes is available with us and it clearly states that Chari's nomination seem to be false and it also clearly accepts Umesh Chandra's nomination to be in words used by Babuji and elects him as president which was also confirmed by the General Body on 7th Feb., 1984. It was on Babuji's orders that Shri Umesh Chandra did not be very active for 11 years to avoid these disturbances as Babuji clearly said that like he was poisoned and there were disturbances when he took over from his Guru same is expected after his physical absence.Let it be clear to all that this is not a fight for money but it is a fight against people mis-representing Babuji. Babuji believed in Quality rather than Quantity. Hence we have been able to maintain Quality people around.Also notice that the last letter is typed on an Electronic Typewriter, which you all know was not present in India in 1982. Is that not aproof in itself.Moreover the case in the Apex court of the country has just taken place and decision is awaited have patience for the order and observations made by court.For your knowledge there were observations from an High Court Judge that the document of Chari doesn't seem to be genuine as the cover letter was of an earlier date (4 days before) and the Certificate as stated by them was not folded and the envelope so submitted was a small sized envelope. The comments that how can a certificate of A4 size come in to a small envelope.!!!!If you people wan't to be swayed away from reality and be guided by few unnatural claimants and propogators it is your problem not Babuji's. If you believe Babuji is the only Guru for the coming Years than get back to us or else we are not interested in people who don't believe Babuji & his masters orders which also is clearly noted fact as per Babuji's original diary.How much more clear can a spiritual order be from Babuji's Master be when he has used the word 'Nutfey' in Urdu which you can verify means 'semen' in English. Stating that your successor will come out of your semen. Original Urdu jpeg file is also being published in our Jan-Feb Issue of Sahaj Marg Patrika.It is SAD to note that People being in spiritual and being with Babujihave not realised who the true successor is. We are here to serve not be severed for standing in cause of Babuji, by not allowing anyone to deviate from the system laid and only of Babuji Maharaj. We happen to be his blood and you would agree blood is thicker than water. We will not be dishonest to our blood. Also note that any sane person would not fight for a cause even when he is well settled in life and working at a respectable Management level in one of the top 20 Organizations of the country India. We are also not claiming to be Master's we are only saying we are servants following our Guru's Order.One last thing on the 13th day from my father's unnatural death my younger brother was warned from reaching to Shahjahanpur by car in person on his way if he wanted his life to remain. But he rung us up and said that if Babuji has given us brothers this work we will not care for our life and he moved to wards Shahjahanpur. Soon within next 10 odd kms a Truck directly collided with the car by coming on the wrong side even when my brother changed his lane the truck followed the car and the car was completely damaged beyond repair. Person sitting right on his back seat died on the spot. But my brother had only a small bruise on his forehead that too due to breakage of glass.Similarly I was also poisoned on the 3rd of February in the year 2003. I vomitted blood as my father did but could survive without any Medicine. All my Nails turned Blue after a day and one of them have still not taken back to the original colour.This is the last time I am writing this to you if you people have started doubting on Babuji and start believing in his so called true disciples who have not let Babuji live his life then Nature shall only take care of you people.RegardsNavneet.
March 2, 2007 11:40 AM
Navneet said...
ErrataRead 2nd line of 2nd last para as Year 2006 not 2003.RegardsNavneet
March 2, 2007 12:13 PM
Alexis said...
Dear Navneet,You said you have a copy of minutes of General Body nomination of Shri Umesh Chandra Saxena in 1984 February the 7.I think it would be a good idea to publish them on your website, with the other letters.Just 2 questions :- What was the role of SP Srivastava between 1983 and 1994 ? Who were in the General Body in 1984 ?- You didn't tell anything about the circumstances of unnatural death of your father. Could you tell us a little bit more ?Thanks a lotAlexis Mielkarski
March 3, 2007 5:41 PM
Navneet said...
Dear Alexis Mielkarski If you see the last letter of Babuji it clarifies the role of Dr S.P. Srivastava and other 3 people. As my father was instructed not to actively involve till the true disciple only stay in this mission with him to avoid the repetation of history.Hence Dr. S.P. Srivastava was heading the society as President so that the dispute could be solved and Chari stops his claim. It is only in 1987 when Chari again got up and attacked the Ashram with few of his followers asking to make him the President. the then ADministrative Authorities asked him to leve the town within 15 minutes and Section 398 was put on him and was barred from entring the district boundaries. Copy of the same is also with us. He has never again attemted to visit Shahjahanpur since then.As far as my father's death is concerned. He was hale & hearty and we were busy with my younger brother's marriage celebrations.He just had tea in the Ashram given by one of our disciples. felt uneasy and vomitted blood. he tried to control himself and the doctor was called. He said it is case of poison in blood. but he recovered by next morning and the doctor advised him to take a bottle of blood when he reaches Delhi.He attended the engagement ceremony of my brother on the next day. He was walking but slightly weak because of loss of blood.We came to Delhi and in the morning at 9:30 AM we took him to a hospital for a bottle of blood. The doctor gave Anaesthesia to him. We objected to it stating that for giving blood we don't give Anaesthesia. Doctor asked nurse to to push my mother out of the room. My father was talking just before the anaesthesia.At 3:00 PM we came to know that my father had expired. Best part is I did not give this news to my motherfor about 1/2 hour but I received a call from Shahjahanpur that one of Chari's close aid in Shahjahanpur has rung the ashram and said that Sh. Umesh Chandra is no more.I wondered that his news of death was known only to the doctor, nuse and me how could the news travel to Chari's camp. Later when I broke the news to my mother she cried saying that Chari has succeeded in killing him. When I asked for detail later came to know that about 15 days back one person had overheard Chari's now Secretary saying that we will have to first kill Umesh then his youngest son. because he is an advocate. He also said that they were talking of some doctor who would help them. My father took it lightly.After relieving my father. The doctor was asked to do postmortem he refused stating no post mortem can be done. Take the body away. My mother was crying too much so we took the body back to our home. To our surprise Chari's aides were there at our house within 1 hr of our bringing my father's body. When no one has any contacts or even meet them ever.When we asked the doctor to give a certificate about his death. The doctor writes he was brought to the hospital with no pulse. How can a man go by lift after walking and sitting Chair after Doctor asked him to sit and tell doctor that he just needs a bottle of blood fast so that he could go back home and answers to doctor that he is just feeling weak and will go back home and be alright.We then ask the hospital to give records of what was the treatment given to my father for just abour 4 hours that he died even when came walking. The Hospital staff refused to hand over the file to us. Which should be given to us as per law.We later tried to enquire through a doctor to see the file inside the hospital and tell us about the treatment. Doctor of that hospital said that that particular file is not there all other file copies are there. he also said that he had enquired about it from others. he was told that you will not get that particular file. Dont talk about it till things settle.Hope now every thing is clear. None of the above incident is manipulated it is a true story but nobody pays heed because of money, and Administrative powers etc. supporting him.RegardsNavneet
March 4, 2007 6:12 PM
Anonymous said...
Dear Navneet,Do you know under what circumstances Shri Parthasarathi Rajagopalachari obtained the ring (which had several different stones) which Babuji customarily wore?Thank you. J.
March 4, 2007 10:44 PM
Navneet said...
Dear J I don't know. But I just know one thing that the rings which Babuji wore were all distributed amongst his sons not Chari. Iwas present in Shahjahanpur when Babuji's Trunk & Box was opened.It doesn't deter from the fact above.RegardsNavneet
March 5, 2007 10:37 AM




Anonymous said...
Hi Navneet,I'm Christian, you probably know me from my discussions about SRCMtm and Chari, on diverse blogs and from my own blog.Can you tell me something to convince me about you?I know Br. Narayana who works for Babuji through the ISRC.Ss. Kasturi has also continued the work alone.I consider these two persons as highly honnest.Why are they not working with you?I have thought about this affair a lot.When I joined the SRCMtm at the end of the 80s, it happened that I also met dissidents by the same time, and from the begining of my practice, I was being connected to both clans and engaged mentally in this sordid story.I have a high respect for your Grand-father, though I refuse to approach spirituality with the Indian attitude consisting in devoting to a man, furthermore dead, so long as I have not a direct inner relation built proving that I am not trapped in the play of imaginary and myths created by others, eventually the pathology of others.No one is to interfere in between.I was really upset to see how people use Babuji's name to propagate myths about him.I made it my duty to analyse inconsistencies showing where we are drifting in a myth, where we are in spirituality - which is a mystery in itself.All of us are trying to cover this mystery with explanations, when Babuji did his best to uncover it and offer it to human kind.He let a teaching showing us how to uncover this mystery in ourselves to offer it to human kind, and so on.However, you all try to stop this propagation process by creating an obnubilation of abhyasis on Babuji instead of god's realization.For me, it is like creating a new religion.The task I was involved in is difficult, and I received very little help.It also put me in a difficult situation with people from the ISRC, who do want to believe.Finally, I decided to let it go, for it has become obvious that no one can go against the flow of history.A new religion is being forged.It is probably all humanity could grasp from this new attempt of divinity to actualize itself in our species.Babuji never wanted him to be deified by people from what I can read in his books, and loved as an idol - did he?He wanted people to realize god. He said that religion divides when spirituality unites, but we observe much division in his lineage.Is it possible that this division results from a manipulation that you attribute to the clan of Chari, but which would involve other organisations?You say you were poisonned, your father was, and your grand-father was, and there was a murder attempt on your brother's life.On the other side, Chari says that he was poisoned and he probably fears for his life considering the security around him.Spiritual people are not murderers, and I do not see Chari being involved in this kind of action.Who could have interest in doing so?I am convinced that you are manipulated on both sides or clans, against each other.My feeling is that the 3 letters you produced on the website of the srcm shahjahanpur are all fakes, including yours.Have you considered this possibility seriously?There were surely few ideas or problems in Babuji's teaching causing division in brotherhood and aspiration for power, but it can't be enough to create this mess, or people are completely crazy.As it seems they are not, as they seem to be sincere, I am now considering another option: manipulation from outside.Is it something that you already thought about?
March 5, 2007 11:31 AM
Navneet said...
Dear Anonymous (Christian)As far as you say Br. Narayana and Ss. Kasturi are highly honest. I don't refute the fact completely. As far Ss. Aksturi is concerned she was the one who in India said that Chari is the successor way back in 1984 which created this divide. She was all praises for Chari till late about Year 2000. It is only when Chari's Aides through her belongings out of Vizag Ashram and told her not to come back then she became against Chari.Later my father met Ss. Kasturi asking her to come back to the original SRCM. She agreed but with a condition that she should be given the same place as that given by Babuji and that she would only then ask her followers to come along with her. My father said that she is welcome but, with a condition that there can be only one GURU and that is Babuji Maharaj and we don't wan't any more divisions in the system hence we would not allow anyone to propogate that they are their abhyasis. An abhyasi of SRCM should be only follower of one guru that is Babuji, which is in line with the orders of his Guru which is clearly mentioned in the Diary written by Babuji. She said that she will think it over. As far as Br. Narayan is considered. He did meet my father way back in the late 90's and agred to support us then once the Supreme Court decides. I don't know his stance as of now.I can only say that I am acting as per the wish of my master that he shall remain the only MAster till the end and I am no Guru. But, surely can make you feel the same transmission (which I hope you consider or have felt by now and is the synonimity of basis of spiritual elevation.) which was felt, during Babuji's time. Only experience proves. Once again, Only experience of the true spiritual transmission is a test of presence. People following Babuji even after his physical demise know the best as to how they have had the feelings and presence of babuji. There is a saying in India that You can't tell the taste of anything unless you have tasted one.It is only your materialistic approach which is making you think that you can't devote to man who is death. You are proving that all your forefathers wasted their time in Church, and you are saying against all spiritual & religious leaders which is false. Do not take this as an explanation that we are creating a religion. No we are not and we do agree that religion divides and spirituality unites.The path of spirituality you also agree was given by Babuji in SRCM for the benefit of mankind. So what is wrong in abiding by his path and stating that he is the GURU and person who has shown us the path. As Prophet Mohammed had shown for a religion and as Gautam Buddha ji had shown for Budhism. I hope that you will understand the above explanation if you are whee bit spiritual and understand that Life and death are materialistic and spirituality never dies. Hence the person who has shown us this path of spirituality too always remains a Guru. Even if you were truly devoted to Babuji's path you shouldn't have questioned his and his master's directions as a true seeker. It does not matter to us whether you decide to take the right path or not. We are only doing our duty to guide people to the right & wrong and they are to decide their own fate.I really don't know of the inconsistencies you are talking about may be these are there because you have still not completely got associated with the true follower who till date only believes in Babuji and his teachings. It may have cropped up because of your you have still not decided to follow a path and are detouring from the first principle of spirituality i.e. think from your heart not your mind. heart is the centre of spirituality. the moment yo start questioning and thinking here and there there is lack of faith in one particular path. Which is the root cause of all this misappropriations of your mind.We still say follow what Babuji laid down and taught and practice what you are supposed to for your personal spiritual upliftment.Please make sure that all the explanation is not to forge a new religion but to forge that all human irerespective of their religion, caste, creed, colour and sex have to follw the spiritual upliftment for their progress.You have also misunderstood tha division in his lineage. Let me clear that we are against the divisions and we still say that Babuji is the oonly GURU and shall remain till the end of this world. Hence we are against anybody calling himself or herself as Master or a Sub-Guru aor demi-Guru. We are also preaching undivided SRCM who believe in only one GURU the founder alone.Now the question of murder and last letters of Babuji being fake. You have joined in late 80s We also confirmed on various facts written in the last letter. If there are people around you who had attended the Paris function Ask them if it is false that Chari was proclaiming to be next president. Note same has been written in the letter. The letter also has corrections by hand. Babuji, i know you would not know had a peculiarity in his handwriting which is clearly evident from the letter.As far as the letter of Nomination of my father and his sons is concerned try and connect the last letter with it and try and compare the words so written in the letters. Also do not forget the fact that Babuji never wrote anything about the mission without his Guru's name and directions too. Also do not forget that Babuji used to work in court and a person adept with law will always write in legal accent which the letter of my father's nomination clearly depicts. And the third letter we are saying is a forged one by Chari and am with you. as the content are no one near to the above stated facts.If Babuji is gone physically, so does his son and his grandsons opposing Chari then no one opposes Chari as President. Is this reason not good enough to remain a GURU for Chari. But fact remains that when there are no takers as per the constitution and bye laws of the Trust it stands dissolved as per law. It will also not go in hands of culprits. I know my life is in Danger by writing all this but I don't want to budge away from the world like a hyena (who attacks and plays tactics) but wan't to die a lion's death.Chari's poisoning is all crap. he has not stayed in Ashram after Babuji's funeral. Now it is more than 20 years now. He is trying to take sympathy after we put forward this last letter of Babuji. and in this shelter he and is his aides are playing all the games. You will not believe it because none of your family mambers have faced death in this fashion.Do not forget that any society or organization works by Byelaws and rules laid down in the constitution. Which was laid down Way back in 1945 when I suppose no one of you or for instance even me were the followers of Babuji. It is very clear in it that as per Section 3a & 4b of the same President has to be in Direct line of succession only. At that time and even todat direct line of succession means genetic son and then his son.Have ever considered that Spirituality is science. You also would agree that we are made of particles and electrons too. which align in aparticular direction. Transmission is magnetic in nature as it is a flow of energy. It is this energy which aligns us towards spiritual goal. Now when Babuji established this mission and was the one who gave the system for others to follow. He had his particles and electrons always aligned to spirituality. rest is for you people to analyze as to who is the best representative of such a being. This fact has been aptly told by his Guru in his diaries. You just need to correlate things with science of spirituality. There is saying. that A cat closes his eyes and drinks milk thinking that no one is seeing it drink. but the fact will remain that the milk has been drunk. So if you don't believe on the facts it is your problem not the world around.Rest is for you to decide from Heart not your Head.RegardsNavneet
March 5, 2007 12:53 PM
Alexis said...
Dear Navneet,I understand your anger if Chari's group is responsible for all you said.But, much of us weren't in the SRCM in 1983-84, it makes a long time. Like you say , Kasturi was for Chari at this time. KC Narayana said us that the letter of your father was a forgery. He said Chari was president but not spiritual representative.All these people are serious. Who to believe ?For understanding and choose, the history of facts should be known, all the history must be known. I thus think that it would be necessary to publish the copy of the minutes of the decision and the list of people who took part of it.I'm really sad for all of your family.RegardsAlexis
March 5, 2007 4:05 PM
Anonymous said...
"Only experience of the true spiritual transmission is a test of presence."Presence of what? A ghost? Or god?I'm sorry to be provocative, but even your Grand-Father would have said that the true master is one and one only, and it is god.What you say can only be a forgery, which author is not Babuji."It is only your materialistic approach which is making you think that you can't devote to man who is death."You meant: "It is only your materialistic approach which is making you think that you can't devote to man".Actually, because my approach is not materialistic, I am not looking to devote to man, but to god.This is where I had a problem with Chari, and this is where I have a problem with Babuji's followers.I do not know if you are conscious of this fact, but you are closing the doors to people like me.Didn't Babuji showed the way to god? Did he showed the way to idolatry for himself?If it was so, it would be completely inconsistent with what he said concerning Indian gurus."So what is wrong in abiding by his path and stating that he is the GURU and person who has shown us the path."Absolutely nothing, and I never said anything against this fact.I said that I was feeling very uncomfortable with the power sickness of the ones and the others, whether they look power for themselves openly as Chari, or more indirectly as those claiming that Babuji is god.He was absolutely honest by saying that no one can usurpate this position."Hence the person who has shown us this path of spirituality too always remains a Guru."Why not?He came to show a living path, not to add one more religion to the burdened humanity.Therefore, he could never whish this.Only those who wanted to use his name to get a power position have interest in this.I may be wrong, as everyone, but after thinking again and again, I could find no other conclusion, and after reading you, I have no information to see things differently.If it is to place Babuji at the position of god, why not to consider god directly?If it is to get a guide, even Babuji said that we need an incarnated guide, and he explained why.However he is dead now, and as we have seen since then, every body has taken a different position, making the deads say and order what was in agreement with the point of view of the ones and the others.Finally, it resulted in division, implying that either the dead who gives orders from above is inconsistent, or that those who claim to receive orders from above are impostors taking their imaginary as intercommunications."Even if you were truly devoted to Babuji's path you shouldn't have questioned his and his master's directions as a true seeker."I don't know how many times I have heard that.This is manipulative and dishonest.I can understand that you may whish to take mental control over me, but this is highly materialistic behavior, isn't it?Furthermore, it is not bringing any answer to my questions, nor helping me to reach god.It just means: you want to prove that you are a spiritual aspirant? Shut up."It does not matter to us whether you decide to take the right path or not."Possibly because you do not know what love is?Otherwise you would feel concerned."We are only doing our duty to guide people to the right & wrong and they are to decide their own fate."To guide?If only I was sure it is not to misguide, as I have experienced with your colleague Chari, I would be more confident in Indian gurus and would accept their supervision more easily.But as soon as we start asking questions, we only discover their ignorance and the protective reaction is always the same.This is a sad state."think from your heart not your mind. heart is the centre of spirituality."I do not think it is possible to think with the heart.As you say, heart is the center of spirituality, not of thought.Maybe you mean: feel with your heart?Which would be ok.Or Indian people and Occidental use different centers for doing the same?"the moment yo start questioning and thinking here and there there is lack of faith in one particular path."Faith is only for god.A path is a path, i.e. a way to god, and following it only implies the need to have faith in god.If I was not faithful, I would still be in the SRCMtm following the "path" stupidly.Stupidly, that's it, so that the "gurus" are never confronted to their ignorance by their stupid followers."We still say follow what Babuji laid down and taught and practice what you are supposed to for your personal spiritual upliftment."I do."You have also misunderstood tha division in his lineage. Let me clear that we are against the divisions and we still say that Babuji is the oonly GURU and shall remain till the end of this world. Hence we are against anybody calling himself or herself as Master or a Sub-Guru aor demi-Guru. We are also preaching undivided SRCM who believe in only one GURU the founder alone."I have understood your point of view, and explained mine above.By making these statements, you have made an attempt to stop the flow of Nature.That is why division is arising, as a rock in the the river will divide its flow, and in its time finally be dissolved through ages, or taken away by the flow of the river.You are reducing Babuji's teaching to the flow of the river, trying to control it, when Babuji's teaching was concerned with water, whatever its form."Ask them if it is false that Chari was proclaiming to be next president. Note same has been written in the letter. The letter also has corrections by hand. Babuji, i know you would not know had a peculiarity in his handwriting which is clearly evident from the letter."Let's suppose it is the case.It means that Chari has killed his beloved according to you.But isn't it possible that someone took advantage of the situation and used Chari's greed for social power to cover his crime?"Also do not forget the fact that Babuji never wrote anything about the mission without his Guru's name and directions too."I agree with you."do not forget that Babuji used to work in court and a person adept with law will always write in legal accent which the letter of my father's nomination clearly depicts."However, it is not the way he wrote his spiritual journal or his books.Linking this to your precedent quote, I think that the secret letter is a fake.Lalaji was everything for your Grand-Father.This letter is just revealing a total lack of faith of Babuji in Lalaji and god, and that's why I consider it can't be from him.Somebody tried to imitate him into something plausible knowing what you have mentionned, resulting in an aberration."And the third letter we are saying is a forged one by Chari and am with you. as the content are no one near to the above stated facts."Yes, this was stupid, but as you know for guiding people in spirituality, the human soul is also dark."If Babuji is gone physically, so does his son and his grandsons opposing Chari then no one opposes Chari as President."Do you mean they will try to kill all those people questionning Chari with blogs?I have another theory - see below."Is this reason not good enough to remain a GURU for Chari."I ask you to consider it again: who may have a less visible, long term advantage in this fight?Chari is old and will probably die soon, so this is not a good argument.Even Chari might be manipulated, I hope that you have considered this possibility also.Chari is very badly surrounded.It is possible that some of his nearest disciples be alleged to another organisation/ideology."But fact remains that when there are no takers as per the constitution and bye laws of the Trust it stands dissolved as per law."This is possibly what they want.Babuji's teaching is not preserved intact anymore with Chari, who has already adapted it and drifted it.This causes its failure, and it is enough to keep the SRCMtm alive.Indeed, his SRCM is not really a menace anymore, for it is misleading people now.What if?What if god was a secret not to be revealed to human kind?Do you think that secret societies would let the secret of god flow out of their control, eventually resulting in making humankind awake and conscious?This could endanger the globalized organisation they are building since centuries, if not millenia, using religions as a tool for spreading their agenda.By claiming what your Grand-Father claimed and tried to reveal it to the world in the beginning of the 70s, your Grand-Father came to play in the garden of the powerful guys, and surely, he paid for this.Consider when the murder attempts on him did started.My life may also be in danger for writting this, and you have to pray and pray that reality be revealed to you, for it is surely far more complicated than it seems to be.Powerful people control the world and they may consider the teaching of your Grand-Father as an artefact in their plan.If Chari did what he did, knowing how rotten the world is, having the SRCMtm drift as it did, he might have done this to protect the people he loved from being murdered.What if he plays the rules that were imposed to him as if he was ignoring everything, to save what can be?Consider this possibility seriously.I was very upset after Chari when I resigned last year, but since, I reconsidered what I felt coming from him by that moment.I first interpreted it as fear of being exposed, but now I understand that he also has a tremendous pression coming from elsewhere.He may not do what he wants, but keep it a secret and just let people target him as if he was the only responsible guy for drifts and murders."rest is for you people to analyze as to who is the best representative of such a being."This contradicts your statement about having Babuji as the only one guru for ever."A cat closes his eyes and drinks milk thinking that no one is seeing it drink."My point of view is that the cat enjoys his milk, therefore closes his eyes.This saying is clearly anthropocentrism, giving to the cat thoughts that he can't have.This is imaginary.Spirituality can't be imaginary, but the teaching of these so-called gurus is usually mixing both, resulting into a crap."So if you don't believe on the facts it is your problem not the world around."One is to believe in god only, not in facts.Facts are what they are, and I try to see them as they really are, instead of fitting them to my imaginary as most of people do.Navneet, I am sorry for what your familly has been through and continues to undergo.I whish you good things.Thanks for this discussion.Christian
March 6, 2007 8:08 AM
Navneet said...
Dear ChristianIt is sad to note that you did not take my letter in a true essence and spirit. Maybe I thought you were of the know how of what real transmission was at the time of Babuji. In your first para you have started with Ghost and God. I never meant what you feel in the transmission I only meant that the intensity and the subtleness of transmission which was present during Babuji's era is still felt by people with us. who had been associated since Babuji's physical presence. Moreover, My Grandfather grandfather was clear of the of the differences between Master and God. And it is sorry to note that you have still not gathered the meanining of the master Master is just a Guide to take you to the path of God realization by showing a path towards the god. He also considered Lalaji as his master and not God as his master even after lalaji's physical demise.Word devoted does not only mean being devoted to god alone. We use the word devoted followers isn't it. What does it connote does it connote only to GOD or does it also convey being devoted to GURU. I don't know how much you will buy this statement 'As a human you should first learn to be devoted to a human who is showing you the path of devotion to the Ulltimate.' Only then you can be a true devotee. If you known of a path directly to God and have direct interface with God like a physical being (what you desire)with no one to guide you. Then you would surely opt for that.On Question which you may think over is "Is God Physically present and living to show you a path towards him." then why talk about Living Master too, You have his path, his teachings and the directions given by him to follow to reach the Ultimate isn't it. You may feel that I am trying to provocate you. No I am not I am still trying to answer you even after all the words you have used in your past two messages. I never ever said that you take Babuji as God and Goal neither did babuji ever say so, but I personally have never seen God, but I have seen Babuji only, who has shown us the path. hence I am devoted to him as my Master who has shown me the path of GOD. Unless I don't have full faith and devotion in my Master how can I have devotion to that GOD.Neither did I have written nor I mean that we place Babuji in place of GOD. But, I still say that we need to imbibe his characteristics of love, faith and devotion to his Master after which he could achieve GOD. Note that his Master was also not Physically present during his lifetime, esp. after forming this Trust, Shri Ram Chandra Mission. No where is it written that a Spiritual Representative is a GURU. Yes in Diaries of Babuji it is clearly written that you shall be the only Master for times to come because of you work in this field of spirituality. Hence please do not construe that I an a spiritual Aspirant for GURU but yes I am a spiritual spirant like any other person but with a purpose so ordered by my Master, Babuji. You have grossly misunderstood the statement and has overanalyzed it. Maybe, this is uprooting from the fact that all are calling themselves as Guru of Living Master.Babuji said Give me a chance to serve you. If you feel to continue continue. here too Babuji never insisted anyone to be his disciple and follow his given path. So who are we. Only mistake that may be I have done is to be a bit upright in saying "It does not matter to us whether you decide to take the right path or not. We are only doing our duty to guide people to the right & wrong and they are to decide their own fate."It just meant that we are trying to tell you some of the facts which are known to us and are a cause of divide and path here does not mean spiritual Path. But means the right spiritual path. Babuji's followers path or Chari's SRCM TM or say ISRC or Ss Kasturi. I hope you have understood right or wrong. Here as you told in your comment earlier to follow the true master i.e. God. Similarly follow Babuji (the founder of the system) or imposters is the key question.Moreover Had I not been thinking of people around the world for their betterment, I would have contacted the world through this blog and nor would have answered to you even after you have used words like 'Shut up', imposter, forged for us. It feels bad when you try to be true to world but, the world is such that it never understands your feeling and trueness but always retaliates as you did. in last two messages.I hope by now you might have realized and may perhaps be convinced that Faith is not only for GOD but also for the Master first as he is the one who has shown you the path of God irrespective of the fact that he is physically dead or alive. Like a mother will always be a mother till you breathe last, A guru shall always be the one who has shown you the ray of path to God realization. If you are not conviv\nced please do not react now take time to think over it and then reply.To be on path of spirituality you should first be a good human to respect others esp. I never trusted words like 'Shut up' can be used for someone from his family. Then what is the difference between you and Chari. He also said in one of his statement. earlier during babuji's lifetime openly in front of many that BAbuji has gone mad. Please read the Autobiography of Babuji if you have the right version. he has stated very clearly. that even a dog of my Guru's house has to be given all respect.One of the most important teavchings and basis of babuji is that you have to achieve spirituality even after living your material life. He has also written that Spirituality and materialism are the two wings of the bird and a balance has to be maintained.Have you seen the society bye laws of Shri Ram Chandra Mission registered with the Registrar of Societies. For your information Most of the byelaws of our society had been written and redrafted by Babuji MAharaj himself. I hope you will appreciate that any Memoradum of a company or a society is a legal document written in legal language.So when a person can write in legal language and when he is giving a nomination of a society which is legal entity he will have to write in a legal language.Where is it written that a lawyer cannot write poetry or about sprituality or where is it that a doctor cannot understand or write about any occult sciences. For intsnce are you earning through spirituality or am I earning through spirituality . NO let it be sure neither of us are earning our bread and butter through spirituality. I am a Management Consultant since over 12 years now.Understand from the saying of Babuji mentioned above you have to create a balance and man leads both life simultaneously spiritiual and material.Lastly Facts are not for identifying a spiritual path but to make clear that in name of Babuji there are many a claimants but the facts only clarify that Babuji did not want it the way it is now.RegardsNavneet
March 6, 2007 1:21 PM
Anonymous said...
Hi Navneet,Thanks for your reply.I have to clarify a point.English is not my first language, and I see while reading you that it is not yours either.When I wrote in my previous message "It just means: you want to prove that you are a spiritual aspirant? Shut up.", the "Shut up" was not some injunction addressed to you.I was describing or analysing the implicit meaning of what you were saying to me.It means that "shut up" is the sense of your previous message, for no questions have to be asked, just devotion, blindly and stupidly.I'm not Indian, and I think that it is the main reason why it is difficult for me to understand the points you are all making as Babuji's followers.The Indian mind is built on the religious background that prevails in your society.I come from the west where the mind is built on another approach of reality, mainly questionning and validating step by step.I have been confident once in an Indian guy that you know well, and this just resulted in messing my life completely.So don't ask me to fall a second time.Faith is something deep that drives life, not a mere thought that I could have in the surface of my mind.Even if the Sahaj Marg was slamming the door to my face, this would not prevent me to aspire for god, for I can say that this is the central core of my life.Let me explain how I understand the meaning of your message and you will tell me if I received it correctly.Babuji was the person that created a synthesis of different spiritual paths, resulting in the Sahaj Marg system.You consider him as the guide in this path because he is its founder.His goal was to guide people to god, and you accept that god is the goal, not Babuji.He has left behind, as part of the system, trained people to guide aspirants and make technical aspects like transmission available as a part of the path.The goal of the path is also to preserve itself, therefore to create people able to transmit its technical aspects to the next generation.My point is:(1) my goal is god and he is the one whom I devote my life to(2) my guide is the one who helps me reach this goal, i.e. a living trainer.You admit that the living trainer is an essential point, otherwise there is no need of a path like Sahaj Marg: who would apply the technics?Just devoting to Babuji would be enough and he would take care of everything from above - but it is not the case.I spent some time without accessing to the services of a preceptor, and I may say from that experience that neither god, nor Babuji, helped me.This is probably why Babuji was not taking Mahommet or Krishna or god as guides, but a living trainer.This position does not put aside any respect and consideration for Babuji as the creator of this path.All the analyses and criticisms I make when doing this work of uncovering reality from all the crapy imaginary that everyone has covered events with, is to try to bring back good sense so that the path to god becomes straight again, and not subjected to conditional devotion and idolatry to a person.However, stating this is disturbing believers a lot.When I say "good sense", people reply "dogma".When I ask "spirituality" or "god", people answer "belief", "devotion", and "religion".It seems impossible to have a rationale discussion with "disciples".I know my questions are embarassing.I also know my questions are good.And I know why nobody hear them and take the time to go deep in them.It is very sad because they drive to truth.I wanted to clarify these points before eventually going further in the discussion, and I also hope it helps to break some prejudices.I am sure that none of you understand my point of view.For you, it is not conceivable to approach spirituality that way.However, if spirituality is an approach of the reality, as your Grand-Father taught, it cannot be through dogma and imaginary.I will continue to think about your last post.Concerning the documents you are referring me to (Babuji's writtings), I surely have not the correct versions.Can you mind some way to provide me these documents?Finally, you did not react to the suggestion I was giving.You may think about the idea of a manipulation of the clans to mask criminal activities of which none of you is responsible.By the way, has Chari visited your ashram since "they" took it, and are you sure that it was stolen by the SRCMtm?Kind regards - Christian
March 7, 2007 7:02 AM
Navneet said...
Dear ChritianYou have got things right now. Now to your question of living trainer. Yes it is important to keep the system alive through a live trainer. That is the reason why Babuji has appointed his spiritual representative. Spiritual representative means only as the word suggests representing some one. It does not mean replacing the person. Hence we say GURU cannot be replaced.Spiritual Representative works with is team of Preceptors which are the trainers appointed by them. hence living Trainers are essential but not to be considered GURU. I hope the word Spiritual representative used till date by all loosely is clear by now. Had there been a chance of GURU succeeding Babuji. Babuji in his Memorandum of society or in his books would have somewhere written about subsequent Gurus's and not representative only.Yes, Ido agree that there is a chance that all criminal Activities taking place are by some people close to Chari but I cannot rule out his involvement completely. Because if he was true and not anywhere involved would have had the courtesy to say sorry on their behalf and would have asked them not to continue such activities further. Put yourself in his shoes. When you have come to know of activities done by your people, which you feel is wrong and if you are a good man you will not think twice in saying sorry for the same and also wouldn't you ask your people to stop carrying out such activities against your GURU's family.Moreover, One more reality which came to us after the death of my Father is that there was a sister and brother who had come to my father stating that their father is an old abhyasi from Babuji's time and they would like to contribute in running of the Mission like his son & daughter would do. My father agreed and they were working since over 10 years. Even during my marriage things given to sisters of groom coming from the brides house was given to this female. My father also got dresses stitched for the two as he got stitched for my brothers during my marriage.But, just after my father's death one of my brothers school mate met him, when my brother told about my father was President of SRCM at Shahjahanpur and died recently he then stated that he is following SRCMTm of Chari recalled that while he was in Hyderabad and went to pay a visit Chari with his parents about 5 months before my fathers death. He had seen one male and female coming from Shahjahanpur and when Chari was told about it he left the gathering for sometime and took them to a room nearby. This friend of my brother described the appearance of both male & female who had come. My brother is given tea on the 14th Movember 2003 (about 11 days after my fathers death soon after accident of my brother in night) by this male which, my brother forgets to drink and in the morning one of our abhyasis find that the tea has turned blue and throws away the tea. Mind you the tea which my father drank 4 days before leaving his physical body and vomitted blood was also given by this male. We got suspicious about the two. We also had seen a remarkable difference in approach of the two over the last few years. Later we found misappropriations done by the Male & female brother & sister.Ths incident clearly states that Chari was meeting so called close disciple to my father. who my father considered to be fourth son and daughter. Now a new message was shouted out by Chari's Secretary while beating my mother and Sh. Amresh Kumar ayear back that the male had poisoned Chari in the AShram. To our knowledge Chari has not come to Ashram and this boy was only 17 years old in 1992 when he came to us and in 1983 this male would have been on 8 years old and he only came to Ashram with his parents only as a child.Hence since we don't rake the poison issue before he came up with the new story of poison.Chari's Aides had forcibly taken the Shahjahanpur Ashram way back in April beginning in last year. Now it is a year and Chari has not visited that ashram till now. (it is about a year now.)You may decide based on the above incident and a reaction so expected from a good man atleast and moreso proclaimed spiritual man whether it is happening in his know how or not. Moreover if any deed is done by a person of a group the head of the group has to intervene and stop the illdeeds or elae he too seems to be party to the same. I hoe your questions are answered as of nowRegardsNavneet
March 7, 2007 11:30 AM
Anonymous said...
Hi Navneet,I think we are progressing.You will discover that since the beginning, my conceptions on most of the points are not far from yours, except on few essential things.I take point by point the issues I want to discuss/clarify from your last post."Now to your question of living trainer. Yes it is important to keep the system alive through a live trainer. That is the reason why Babuji has appointed his spiritual representative. Spiritual representative means only as the word suggests representing some one."This notion of spiritual representative needs to be clarified: every preceptor is a spiritual representative if we just consider the meaning of words."It does not mean replacing the person. Hence we say GURU cannot be replaced."According to Babuji (or Lalaji?), the guru is god and all the others are his representative."living Trainers are essential but not to be considered GURU"Of course, if the only guru is god.That's why I was saying that everyone who tries to give this position among men is to be called an impostor, and Babuji would agree 100% with this."I hope the word Spiritual representative used till date by all loosely is clear by now."No, you need to clarify, please, the difference between a preceptor and "the" spiritual representative.I understand the difference between a president and what I consider a spiritual representative.Let's put together these 3 roles (president, spiritual representative, preceptor) and try to distinguish them more clearly.It is an essential point that may be really helpful for me in my approach of the Sahaj Marg system."Yes, Ido agree that there is a chance that all criminal Activities taking place are by some people close to Chari"This is one possibility - I was talking of his surrounding influencing him.Another possibility is that he may not really have control, because of pressions from outside.He has involved the mission in the UNO, and I first thought that it was for a search of prestige and credibility of the mission.It may also be a sign that he is under allegiance, and the adhesion to the UNO is only a small visible thing from what is happening behind.Those who rule human history are trying to build a mundial government - trully a dictatorship - and he has spoken about that few times in his speeches.Of course, the teaching of your Grand-Father goes directly against this project by bringing some efficient tools to people to have their consciousness awakened.Chari must be aware of few issues.My guess is that he is trapped and has no more the control in hands.Therefore, those who control him may have been involved in the events that happened in Shahjahanpur and to your familly.I think that you have no idea of the power you are dealing with."Because if he was true and not anywhere involved would have had the courtesy to say sorry on their behalf and would have asked them not to continue such activities further. Put yourself in his shoes. When you have come to know of activities done by your people, which you feel is wrong and if you are a good man you will not think twice in saying sorry for the same and also wouldn't you ask your people to stop carrying out such activities against your GURU's family."See your last sentence.This is why I think that if he was in control, he would not let this happen.He cannot present excuses for what he is not responsible for.Of course I am speculating and exploring how this hypothesis fits reality.Could Chari be a murderer and a criminal?I don't think so - though I may be wrong - but this is not the feeling I have about the guy now.That's why the second option starts giving a new light to events, don't you think?"He had seen one male and female coming from Shahjahanpur and when Chari was told about it he left the gathering for sometime and took them to a room nearby. This friend of my brother described the appearance of both male & female who had come."This might have been their first visit to the SRCMtm, and of course, Chari was curious and interested by what is related to his master Babuji.All the facts you describe after this paragraph would incriminate these people.However, not as working for Chari nor for you, but for an organisation unrelated to both clans.They succeed making you and Chari's clan believing that the ennemy is the other clan, which is their best cover.Now, consider that it is very easy to infiltrate your groups, and that you have no ways to control that.As easy it is to have you think something through manipulative activities, through ideas.Religions and spiritual movements are not to bring people to light, but to slavery, only because they were engineered for that and transformed through history, secretly, as a power tool for social control.I fear that your clan and Chari's clan are undergoing this process."Now it is a year and Chari has not visited that ashram till now."Don't you find it strange?It may mean that he does not want to give his caution to it.Same for the lack of acknowledgement.If he was acknowledging, he would confess he is responsible.Or he is and he is rotten - but this is inconsistent.You were also questionning the integrity of Indian justice and Indian administration.I can say that it is the same in France, my country.These secret powers have infiltrated all the institutions.Information brings freedom, but information can also be manipulated and becomes a jail.This has happen with the discussions on the blogs.Hope the discussion also helps you.Kind regards - Christian
March 7, 2007 10:46 PM
Navneet said...
Dear ChristianI think you are new to the system and have not been since Babuji's time and have not read Babuji's literature or even had a glimpse of Babuji's Preceptors Book. This is the reason that you call preceptors as Spiritual Representatives.Babuji in his Preceptors book made by Babuji has clearly mentioned that Preceptors are nothing more than a 'monitor of the class.' and his duty is that of a sweeper who cleans the abhyasis.One more clarity on what a preceptor can do. Preceptor can only clean you and cannot take you higher in the journey of Spiritual upliftment. The journey of spiritual upliftment is in teh hands of individual and is directorly propostional to his faith and devotion with a discipline to follow what has been advised to follow the path of Sahaj Marg after complete surrender to his GURU who is the guide to the path.Please I again say there is lack of complete knowledge of the original literature and preachings of Babuji at your end. And it also seems you have not been communicated rightly or have not captured things rightly. Babuji or for instance even Lalaji never claimed thet they is 'GOD' and Babuji never said that all preceptors are his representatives. From the begining since 1944 as per the literature of Babuji it has been clear that Spiritual Representative(s) are person(s) representing the Guru in times to come. Babuji never used the word 'Trainer' in his system it is word to make people understand coming from the word Training. Since you used the word Trainer I thought I could try and explain it in your language.I request you to please not take any other meaning this time too. Moreover in the memorandum / Constitution and Byelaws of the Mission made by Babuji while establishing Shri Ram Chandra Mission and the clauses 3(b) and 4 (h) of the registered by laws of Shri Ram Chandra Mission is enumerated below.3(b) It shall work under the sole guidance and control of the Founder or his Spiritual Representative, in the direct line of succession; and he shall be the President of the Mission.4(h) He shall nominate among his spiritual successors, any person as his representative, who as such will enjoy all the power and authority vested in the President.Moreover, even his Guru in 1944 defore the establishment of Shri Ram Chandra Mission. I again repeat as per the original diaries of Babuji as written in earlier e-mail also clearly said that your spiritual successor will be your genetic child. He also said that Babuji's lineage shall keep their name alive for the future times to come.Please don't again pose a question on above two facts which have been made clear earlier too and in the website too. From this I thing things are clear regarding your question on President, Spiritual Representatives etc.Regarding Chari's explanation. I have given enough facts for you to understand, consider and analyze. Do what eveer you wan't but facts will remain facts. I don't wan't to discuss on these further.Hope your Questions are answered.RegardsNavneet
March 8, 2007 11:31 AM
Alexis said...
Dear Navneet,It seems that Chari's group occupied not only Shahjahanpur ashram, but also Raichur ashram, after the death of senior full preceptor Raghavendra Rao. Do you know something about that ?We also received this comment from an Anonymous JM :"I'm sorry, but this is all revisionist history.The nomination letter proclaiming P. Rajagolpalachari was witnessed by Don Saborin and Sister Kasturi, who already made this known to the working committee and to the courts, after Babuji's death.In addition, there was no mention of Umesh succeeding at that time. The family first proposed Babuji's elder son Prakash and then, his grandson Charad, who backed off, admitting the falsification.In addition, Babuji told me directly in Munich Germany, in 1980, that he was turning over the work of the mission to Parthasarthi, which converstation I also made available to the courts, Please look to your hearts before spreading these dis-informations, or at least provide my above references to all who have received your mailings.Yours in the service to our Master;JM"RegardsAlexis
March 8, 2007 5:09 PM
A Old Abhyasi said...
Respected AlexisYes it is true that soon after death of Sh. Raghvendra Rao ji Chari's Aides headed by Sh. A.P. Dorai who is a retired police official took over the Raichur ashram. The fact is known to us.You received a message from JM stating the following:"The nomination letter proclaiming P. Rajagolpalachari was witnessed by Don Saborin and Sister Kasturi, who already made this known to the working committee and to the courts, after Babuji's death"It is astonishing of how people tell such a big lie We were suspecting that Babuji's signs were taken by accident but this statement now proves that Chari's letter is surely forged and there now surely seems a to be a plot laid by all three and may be includes JM.Wait before anybody gets angry on this I have personally seen one more letter with Umeshbhai. Photocopy of whic which I will give to Navneet to put on their internet site which proves that DON was not in India around the date of the Nomination. I have seen one letter written to Sister Kasturi ji by Babuji in the year 1982 in which he has written to her that he has already nominated somebody as his successor and strangely that letter does not talk of anything else and it does not talk about name of the successor also. Even this is not on internet.If Ss Kasturi had witnessed Babuji giving letter to Sh. Chari way back in 1974. The following questions need an honest logical common sense answer from JM.1) Babuji writes to Chari about a person not being in India 4 days before giving the so called nomination to Chari and he also tells about Don's programme in the letter to Chari and as per Don he is present at the time of Nomination !!!!!!!2) If Ss Kasturi had witnessed Babuji signing the giving the letter to Chari then why did Babuji have to tell Ss Kasturi ji in 1982 about his nominating a successor. If she was present she should have known it and neither Babuji had to tell her after so many years that he has done a nomination.3) It is sorry state of affairs how people just talk of their hat. How do people say they have told to working committee. Kindly ask the gentleman if the working committee he is talking about took place at the birth place of SRCM in Shahjahanpur or not. Answer is NO. There was a working committe meeting held by Chari in Hyderabad where these individuals stated. This was after the Working Committee at the headquarters rejected his claim. Ask Sh. JM had Don & Ss Kasturi ever attended a working committee meeting after Babuji's pghysical demise at Shahjahanpur. My Uncle was present in the meeting. Again Answer is NO again.4) it is something like I wan't to be made president of a society so I collect some members ask them to make me President sitting at my house. (make a dissidents group, which is quite common in Indian politics) and then start claiming Presidentship of the Society without even going to Society Headquarters.5) Now about courts. Sh.JM can you please provide one prrof that Don has attended court and that Ss. Kasturi has attended court. I thing we should talk on facts not statements. I can show you proof of whatever I have told or can ask Navneet to show the same to you.Alexis One more thing I would like to tell you. Just before going to Paris Babuji did actually say to his Daughter the following. I was present there 'I wan't to go to Police station, someone take me to the Police Station and file a complaint." She asked "what is it Babuji" He said "somebody is going to murder me. Will police accept my complaint beforehand." She replied " Babuji who can murder you. Everybody loves you." Babuji's reply was "No take me to Police" But Alas Babuji was not taken to police for registering his FIR. There are proofs still alive here in India who had witnesseth this and have presented in affadavit to the High Court in India.This is one of the main reason why we consider Babuji's last letter also true in complete sense. Technically too common sense states that Electronic Typewriter being absent in India proves that letter was written somewhere in advanced country. Babuji was in Paris as you know. 4d-Don states that Babuji was not in position to write. But he dictated and did not write He only did corrections. If Mr. 4d-Don touches his heart that it is true to compelte sense if he was present in Paris all the time around Babuji. You all must be knowing Brother KV Reddy ji who was the Overseas Secretary during time of Babuji ask him. He was one who made all arrangements. Ask him what happened. There were 16 Indians there ask 3 Indians whom Babuji shared some part that is written in the letter. I have personally discussed with some.Regarding Minutes of Meeting which will clarify all other claims of Sh. JM ji and his Chariji. I shall provide one original copy to Navneet to soon be put on internet for all to understand how much to believe in JM's statement.Mr. JM if I am not wrong you are very close to Chari ji and were main person propogating Chari in Europe soon after death of Babuji. Every body in India Know how much Babuji talked to you about such subjects as to others. On what pretext the statement was passed to you and when. It was not for Presidentship. If you remember now. I hope by now you would have understood that I have Identified you. Ji... M.t..s. You too have met me before don't try and recognize me as I was very young that time. Alexis I am saying with all proofs seen by me with my own eyes, which I know must have been submitted to courts by now by Navneet group. Moreover I would now just ask you one simple question If Chariji was so confident on his being President. why did he start another SRCMTm later in late 90s. Why did he make other Organizations and not be accepted in India. You people who are staying abroad and are not of Babuji's time don't know the image of his Aides in India. We are suffering by not going my Babuji's gift to us that is Shahjahanpur Ashram. Can a true successor be surrounded by such people. He does not even have the eyes to identify them how will he show the way to others.!!!! Or may be is a politician or a underworld white collared Don trying to build group of his own as it happens in India.I think you can ask JM to produce evidence in whatever form on written proof with Babuji's sign or handwriting to support his claims and put the same on net and then talk about it. Rather than just passing statements without proof.RegardsA old Abhyasi
March 8, 2007 6:50 PM
Alexis said...
Respected old abhyasi,I want to thank you for your answer. The comment of JM was posted on Elodie's blog (http://pourquevivelesahajmarg.blogspot.com). I don't know this anonymous JM, I can't contact him. I hope he will read your answer and accept to exchange with all of us.I would like to say (for me who didn't have the luck to meet Babuji) that history of Sahaj Marg appears more and more complex, with a lot of manipulations.If the people who live in these times didn't explain WITH ALL PROOFS what happened in these dark times after Physical Veiling of Babuji, how could I have confidence ? How people like me could have confidence ?There were great men and women at this 'Working Committee'. Who are they ? What are their testimonies ?And the minutes ? You say another working committee was created by Chari after...Where are the facts ?We need facts, not only anonymous talks that Chari is the president or that this was Umeshchandra Saxena or SP Srivastava, or another one...I hope someone will be help us to understandRegardsAlexisPS : I will make a copy of your answer on all blogs (Elodie, mine, ...)
March 8, 2007 8:49 PM
4d-Don said...
Hi "old Abhyasi"...I would just like to clarify one thing, I placed the "4d" in front of my name so as to "distinguish" myself from Don Sabourin, who was the main preceptor on the West coast of Canada. Don Sabourin is now deceased (approx. 10 years ago)Michael (a preceptor and "inner circle member), who was in Paris in 1982, and was in the hotel and rooms with the delegation, would know if Don Sabourin was in Paris or not.As for the quotes you attach to me, it seems to refer to (the late) Don Sabourin, (or to Michael, who was a preceptor and was in Paris in 1982) and not to me as I was not in Paris in 1982. If that is not the case, and you attach your quote to me, please correct your thinking as they are not correct if applied to me...I do not hold it against you as it appears to be just an honest mistake in this "Web" that has become the "SRCM"... (Don vs 4d-Don)Thank you...4d-don
March 9, 2007 12:11 AM
Anonymous said...
Hi Navneet,It is possible that I have a lack of complete knowledge of Babuji's teaching and original literature.You must be conscious that these documents are not found easily.I was asking you if there was a way to buy these books.ISRC has made a lot of materials available online for free, and you should do the same, don't you think?I am now reading a version of Babuji's autobiography that seems to be the version you publish at the SRCM s (however, I do not have all volumes).I had of course no way to have a glimpse to Babuji's preceptor book.Being a Doctor and a Researcher, I suppose that by my work, I am able to consider and manipulate very abstract and complex concepts underlying reality.Suggesting that I am not intellectually tooled for capturing rightly the Sahaj Marg teaching is a bit rude from you, but I will take it easy.Each time I have asked precise questions, I was sent to read books, or sometimes received a lot of words and sentences finally explaining nothing, and certainly not answering the point.I will extract and summarise the information you give in your last reply and you tell me if I have caught what you say correctly.Preceptors:they clean onlyare not spiritual representativesdon't uplift the aspirant to higher spiritual stagesspiritual upliftment only happens if the disciple has the correct attitude: faith + devotion to Babuji.Guru:is not godguru is BabujiSpiritual representative:person representing the guru after his deathrepresenting means working under the guidance of the Founder or the Spiritual Representative (this becomes very unclear for me: how can he work under the guidance of the Founder when this one is dead? How can he work under the Spiritual Representative guidance if he is the Spiritual Representative? Is this describing the process of transmitting institutional power?)he is also the President of the missionhe is the heir of the FounderTherefore, the preceptor cleans but does not uplift the aspirant.The Representative is the President.What is the role of the Spiritual Representative that would make it necessary, if we can have a President on one side, Preceptors on the other, and Babuji over the scene?Is the representative like Babuji was the representative of Lalaji?If so, why isn't Lalaji the guru?Do we have to understand that god works through Babuji, Babuji works through the heir, the heir through preceptors?Indeed, the aim being god, how does god insert in this organisation?I am sorry to insist, but this is a crucial point I need to have clarified.Concerning Chari.You probably live in a world where everything happens by the grace of god, including the murder of your Grand-Father, the murder of your Father, the action against the Ashram, etc.I live in a world where each cause produces an action, and where each action has a cause.Don't misunderstand: there is still place for god.When I take a look at the pattern unfolding through time, I see a lot of death and a lot of resignations around Chari.They all have in common one thing: the elimination of obstacles.The first visible one is probably Dr. KC Varadachari.Of course, this global pattern can have occurred "by chance".However, every scientist faced to such a visible pattern would start drawing hypotheses on the causes behind, eventually an investigation to validate these hypotheses.I told you in my last post that I do not fully believe in your restricted vision concerning Chari, and that it was very easy to infiltrate Sahaj Marg groups and to manipulate people to have them fight together and become suspiscious.A first possibility is that Chari, from the beginning, is a kind of "agent", who has infiltrated the SRCM.The question would be: for who he works?However, this is a bit crazy...A second possibility, which I consider more plausible - but I may be wrong -, is that Chari was used without his knowledge, and the situation was manipulated by using him from outside since the end 60s.To help refining the hypotheses, you could for instance consider when your Grand-Father went out of India to spread his teaching for the first time, in which conditions (was this whish coming out from him or was he pushed to do it, by who?), when did the first attempts on his life started (before this trip or after, how long after?), in which condition did Varadachari died and why was he warning, before "dying", Babuji about a possible drifting of the teaching and the mission, etc.You may not know it, but the appearing power behind occident is Free Massonry (FM).FM, however, is only a smoke screen to mask the true rulers of the world.My idea is that these true rulers are behind all this mess.They could be involved in engineering a new religion for their globalized plan.Their activity would be to ensure that they control it since the beginning and that they will control more and more people through it.How curious, isn't it, that Chari is looking to spread it at all cost, running after quantity and sacrifying quality?People usually ignore, for instance, that France has a state religion: Free-Massonry.The Republic is only the cover to be seen by people.France seems to be a country of freedom in which the people rule, but trully it is a FM dictatorship.FM is that powerfull that it was responsible of the French Revolution as well as for the US Revolution that occurred around the same period, and later, of the "Déclaration des Droits de l'Homme et du Citoyen", today a farce that is not even respected and applyed in France.These revolutions were in fact the visible activity of a remodeling of the flow of history by the sect.French Revolution is presented as a liberation, when it was nothing but a bloody putch, trully the taking of power of a secret society over countries, and the first deadly blow to Christianity.I hope that I give you matter for new insights.It seems to be important that you try thinking out of the frame that they created for you, and in which your familly is trapped as victims since years.Only if you are to find an issue.Christian
March 9, 2007 5:53 AM
Anonymous said...
Dear Brother Christian,Most of Babuji's books are available for down-load on the Shri Ram Chandra Mission (tm) web-site, under the composite title: "Complete Works of Shri Ram Chandra". For your interest, Lalaji's book "Truth Eternal" is also there (but this is really made up of fragments). If you read these it may help to answer some of your questions & save poor Navneet's brain a little! (And mine too!)This is one very good purpose of the SRCMtm web-site.Affectionately, B.
March 9, 2007 7:15 AM
Anonymous said...
I analyse few points concerning the letter of JM copy-pasted by Alexis."I'm sorry, but this is all revisionist history."The only place on Earth were Revisionism is possible is Iran.Everywhere else, it is punishable by laws, even in countries like France, which constitution says that no one can be harassed for his opinions and their expression...This point gives a hint about who really has the power in hand, and it is great to see that the author uses the same strong concept emotionally charged with implicit menace to frighten people at the very first sentence."The nomination letter proclaiming P. Rajagolpalachari was witnessed by Don Saborin and Sister Kasturi, who already made this known to the working committee and to the courts, after Babuji's death."I wonder why, if Kasturi was "supporting" Chari until 2000, she was not belonging to the SRCMtm.Maybe it was the way for her to buy peace and protect herself?"In addition, there was no mention of Umesh succeeding at that time. The family first proposed Babuji's elder son Prakash and then, his grandson Charad, who backed off, admitting the falsification.In addition, Babuji told me directly in Munich Germany, in 1980, that he was turning over the work of the mission to Parthasarthi,"First it was in 1980.Babuji, after 1980 and until his death, may have changed his opinion.Second, does "turning over the work of the mission to Parthasarthi" imply that Chari was to be the administrator of the mission, or that he was to be the spiritual representative?It is not clear, isn't it?"which converstation I also made available to the courts, Please look to your hearts before spreading these dis-informations, or at least provide my above references to all who have received your mailings.Yours in the service to our Master;JM"@ a old abhyasiAlexis is not an abhyasi and never was.He is regularly discussing with us on the blogs since last year and had his own blog since few years before Elodie, 4d-Don, Michael and I started discussing on ours at the beginning of 2006.He never told us who he was, for who he was working, and why he was doing all that.I was taking his defense at the beginning so that Elodie let him publish comments on his blog, but I had repetedly the feeling that he was just using us.Call him "Respected Alexis" if you want, for his true motivations may be respectable.However I have no way to say it for sure."If Ss Kasturi had witnessed Babuji signing the giving the letter to Chari then why did Babuji have to tell Ss Kasturi ji in 1982 about his nominating a successor. If she was present she should have known it and neither Babuji had to tell her after so many years that he has done a nomination."Very good point.Why did she remained silent?"Just before going to Paris Babuji did actually say to his Daughter the following. I was present there 'I wan't to go to Police station, someone take me to the Police Station and file a complaint." She asked "what is it Babuji" He said "somebody is going to murder me. Will police accept my complaint beforehand." She replied " Babuji who can murder you. Everybody loves you." Babuji's reply was "No take me to Police" But Alas Babuji was not taken to police for registering his FIR. There are proofs still alive here in India who had witnesseth this and have presented in affadavit to the High Court in India."I'm sure he new.It is up to you to gather proofs about history.Do not wait, for people die progressively and they take memories with them in the grave.My guess is that all of you have waited too long, maybe first thinking that time would help forgetting.However, the need for truth is still there and will come again and again until truth rises.He said "someone", not Chari."4d-Don states that Babuji was not in position to write. But he dictated and did not write He only did corrections."I think that initially I said it: if Babuji was sick as described by Michael, who was in Paris in 1982, it seems improbable that he was able to sit at a desk to type such a long letter.Now you say that he dictated it.Considering the content of the letter, it was not to be dictated, for it was confidentially written for someone, and to be a secret between Babuji and the adressee.Would he had dictated it, the content was no more a secret.But if he did dictate it, you surely know to whom?At least it cannot be to Chari..."ask 3 Indians whom Babuji shared some part that is written in the letter."Why, if the murderer was identified and you have all these testimonies, not to have done anything earlier?"Why did he make other Organizations and not be accepted in India."Maybe because India is so corrupted that it is not reliable?"You people who are staying abroad and are not of Babuji's time don't know the image of his Aides in India."At least I know the image of his aides abroad.These are arrogant brats, don't be shy with words."Can a true successor be surrounded by such people. He does not even have the eyes to identify them how will he show the way to others.!!!!"Good point.Consider my hypothesis in the preceding post to Navneet.Kind Regards - Christian
March 9, 2007 7:20 AM
Anonymous said...
Dear Navneet & All,It is certainly wonderful to be having so much that has been unknown and/or unsaid for so long at last coming out into the open.This should ultimately prove to be extremely helpful to a great number of people. Most grateful thanks to those who are bravely contibuting to this effort, and all best wishes to those who are fighting in the cause of Truth and Justice.Affectionately, B.
March 9, 2007 7:24 AM
Anonymous said...
Dear Brother Christian,Most of Babuji's books are available to download on the Shri Ram Chandra Mission (tm) web-site, under the composite title: "Complete Works of Shri Ram Chandra". These may help to answer some of your questions, and also to save some of Navneet's brain (and mine)!Lalaji's book: "Voice Real" is also there, for your interest, but this was really composed from fragments of his writing.This is one very good purpose of that web-site!Affectionately, B.
March 9, 2007 7:33 AM
Anonymous said...
Dear B,Thanks for the information about the books, I will get a look.However, I hope that anyone of you will be able to explain, simply, clearly, with few words, what is a President, what is a Spiritual Representative, what is a Preceptor, what is a Guru, the difference between these roles, and why each role is to be attributed to this and this person instead of this and this person.If it is too difficult, I surely understand why you prefer to send to the books - it is an information in itself.But I do not think that it requires a big mind and a big effort to make this point clear, if it is clear for you.I just imagine that if it is not clear for me, it may not be for anyone...Kind regards - Christian
March 9, 2007 8:38 AM
Anonymous said...
PS:If Babuji was not able to write this letter, if he did not dictate it, if it is not a fake forged by any one of you, if it was made with a technology that was not available in India by that time, you have one more index about the foreign influence in your affairs through infiltration and manipulation.
March 9, 2007 8:41 AM
Anonymous said...
I have some general comments. I have never met Babuji in the flesh but for the last ten years, whenever I have read about Him, thought about Him or heard about Him, I have had a light buoyant feeling. However, as I read through these comments on this blog, I have a dark heavy feeling. My personal conclusion is that those behind this effort are misguided and possibly criminal.It is too bad that they are not in my country. If they were they would definitely get the chance to justify their accusations regarding murder, atempted murder, forgery, etc. in a court of law while defending themselves against willful libelous slander.The great Master, Lord Jesus Christ said it best when He said that you should know the tree by its fruit and a man by his acts.A.S.
March 9, 2007 12:44 PM
Navneet said...
Dear Alexis I think most of the questions I see have been answered really well by A old Abhyasi. Seems to be known as he says he is going to ask me to put the documents on net and also has said that he has given Affidavit in court. May be have to see records.I think seeing your other messages too, it is time that the Minutes of Meeting should also be put on net for Clarity Purposes. I just wan't to say that are a very many unfurling facts which most of you don't know. But I have always talked on what is in form of proof / fact / document hence I have not covered many of these instances i.e. one which A old Abhyasi had referred to. Yes my Aunty did point out the same even to me personally.I would still say that in spirituality the experience of self during meditation is the litmus test for right or wrong.Dear Old AbhyasiI have the minutes of meeting letter copy. I agree that there was a planned plot by not one but by 3 people mainly supported by many. If they hear me and must have known that I know of the three meetings that they had during Babuji's Physical presence. If they remember rightly they had offered one more senior person to be a part of 'conspiracy' as called by that individual. On knowing of the same he refuted them in Delhi which was about 5-6 years before Babuji's physical demise. Please this is also like a statement without documentary proof but yes it is as told by that gentleman known to many a people of the mission who are of Babuji's time.I would just request you to be a bit patient as there will be a time when the dark clouds over our mission will be removed by nature.Moreover, I think Don is right as That Don which babuji gave the second life at Ashok Hotel in New Delhi is no more alive.Dear ChristianI think the version of Autobiography that all have are not the true translation. We have come out with only two volumes in English though Volume 3 and Volume 4 are also ready for print. The original translation in in 7 volumes. Why I say it is not original because There have been personal thought put in while translation of the volumes till now. We are adopting an approach wherein what is written in Urdu is being read by a Moulvi A muslim head Priest. recorded by us and then we are translating in a different language. We are getting this done so that people who know about Sahaj Marg don't start putting in their views in between. We have completed Volume 6 in Hindi only one Volume is effectively left to be translated in Hindi.I don't have a wee bit doudt on your intellect. It is only that mindset which you have which is blocking your Adaptive capability. I never wanted to hurt you.Regarding PreceptorsIn SRCM way yes what you have got is right.GuruYes GOD is Ultimate what we all need to strive and connect to.Correction. Representative is not a word It is Spiritual Representative (in direct line of succession- heir as you said) who is the President.Spiritual Representative is the President. Preceptors are not on one side. and President is not on the other side.Preceptors are appointed by the President (the Spiritual Representative who is heir.) by saying a 'specific prayer'(which is longer than our Prayer) of which Babuji had given in original to my Father. While giving the same he did ascertain that this is to be passed on to our successors to come.There is a difference. Representative is like Babuji was to Lalaji but, the difference is as per autobiography Lalaji blessed Babuji that he has modified the system and has reached to such a level that he shall be the ONLY GURU hereon till Mahapralaya (means till the end of world.). hence it is on order of his GURU that he is our GURU and shall remain forever.Correction Heir does not work through preceptors. I think it is time that people who do not know what are the changes in System after Babuji's physical demise I will tell you one more thing what Babuji did in 1981-82 which he confided to my father in June '82. The system then was that preceptors used to request Babuji for pwer to be transmitted to Abhyasis. As a result all the goods and evils of the preceptors were passed on to the abhyasis as they becamme the medium through which the power travelled from Ultimate to Babuji to preceptor to Abhyasi.The change was felt by Babuji that if he does not remain in physical being and moreover this was creating demi-gurus (As some preceptors started misusing these powers to attract Abhyasis to them.) too. He created a power in the cosmic region which would get activated as soon as the prayer is told by a true seeker, having undeterred faith in BAbuji alone. And the abhyasi would receive Transmission.Now what is preceptor's job. he directs and varies the intensity of the Transmission from this Power to the Abhyasi(s) without his coming in between the Power created by Babuji and his true seeker.What is spiritual Representatives job. The prayer (which is being transferred to his heir)is being oferred to Babuji to give is used to allow the preceptor to have access to this power for Transmission control purpose only. Apart from this various other super-natural powers possessed by Babuji to be used by him when desired and directed with a humble request and submission to Babuji for Action. No one else can use the super natural powers of the Power created by Babuji.This power created by Babuji is directly connected to the Ultimate Power that is GOD. Hence without an OK from Babuji the super natural Powers cannot be used.Moreover we are not here for miracles but, miracles have to be done from time to time if situation demands. My father has successfully used it and there are many examples of the same. But I insist it is not on miracles that we wan't to base our system.Please this is for all to absorb only. Mull over it and do not question as this is the way we are successfully practising in our in true SRCM group. Abhyasis of Babuji have each and every feeling as it is explained in the system. I think this solves your problem. Yes If you are a true seeker then the prayer of Babuji offered by a true follower gets him connected to Ultimate through this power.One more thing I need to clarify is There is no Navel gazing business in our system. If this is followed by someone. This is nothing but Tantrik Vidya in our country. It has nothing to do with Spirituality. It is an effective method to control an individual. we believe and practice that our journey begins from Heart.I am saying all this because these are the facts disclosed to me and the usage is person dependant and cannot be taken or learnt. It is as per direction of Nature only that we are here using what Babuji has created.Surat Function if people remenber was a different experience of Transmisiion. This was a test of the power created by Babuji.Two more answers to questions that are troubling you. One why did we not take action based on the letter. For your knowledge the letter was given to my father in 1994 by after which we have filed a case in High court. And the observations of Judge clearly states that there is seems to be involvement of Chari in Shri Ram Chandra ji's murder.Note that soon after the letter was handed over to my father. After about 3 to 4 months Sh. Jahangirdhar also died on the spot at his residence soon after he was given pills in name of medicine by an individual. the individual was beaten in closed room and asked who was behind it he said I can't name him otherwise he will kill me too. Now I am not saying who is behind it and what was the benefit he could have got.hence our most solid witness of the person who had received the letter was no more to be produced before the court.Jahangirdhar also conveyed many a secrets that Babuji had confided to him which were fetal for the future of Sahaj Marg.I did not tell you this stories of Jahangirdarji and my aunty earlier because we have only living proofs i.e. individuals but no document supporting it. Moreover If I name the individuals who knows they will also lead to a similar death.Thsi is the reason we are requesting the Head of the country for CBI enquiry.I wanted that these meassges reach the people at large so that they don't fall in a trap. We wan't them to benefit from the real system. I am not against anybody. But, am raising a voice against anybody who is misrepesenting babuji's system to others.I am happy that more and more people have got onto this blog. I leave the rest to you people whether to keep discussing or do something in real like a lion what babuji desired rather than just talk ill about the people aroundor question them. Act dont just discuss and talk. join us only if you are a true seeker not an imposter. We are tired of them. Plaese pardon for God Sake now.Rest the net will speak.Last but not the least thanks to B and all others for understanding the pains we are facing. Dare to be a party to it not a mere seer.Regards to allNavneet
March 9, 2007 6:54 PM




Alexis said...
Dear all readers,Christian is right, I'm not an abhyasi. You can see what i do on my blog (i wrote to Navneet in this sense the 13 february).But i think a lot of abhyasis of Sahaj Marg need to know the truth, even if they don't want it.I say 'abhyasis of Sahaj Marg' without details, because some are with Chari, others with Kasturi or with Raghavendra Rao or KC Narayana or in shahjahanpur...A lot of them, like me, were young in 1980-84. Then we need all the true history. That's my first preoccupation today.Navneet, i will thank you very much when minutes of working committee will appear on your website.Just another question because 'old abhyasi' didn't tell anything about JM declaration on First son of Babuji Prakash and grandson Charad. He said they were candidate for succession but Charad said his letter was false. What is it ?Regards to all the readersAlexis Mielkarski
March 9, 2007 9:46 PM
Anonymous said...
"I have a dark heavy feeling. My personal conclusion is that those behind this effort are misguided and possibly criminal."Yes, I am a criminal. I killed many people and have just been out of jail few years ago.Charistian
March 9, 2007 9:51 PM
Anonymous said...
"Lord Jesus Christ said it best when He said that you should know the tree by its fruit and a man by his acts."That's what we are doing also.This is called juging.This is inconsistent with another statement he said, citing the "law": you will not juge.You may feel darkness, for that's what we reveal.Christian
March 9, 2007 9:54 PM
Anonymous said...
Thanks a lot Navneet.I hope to meet you one day.Christian
March 9, 2007 10:10 PM
Alexis said...
Here it is the resume of declarations made by some witnesses of what happened in the past and today. Thanks to all to correct me if I made errors. Please continue to tell us the real history of Babuji's Sahaj Marg… (English translation was made by 4d-Don)The “contradictory facts” which some tell us…The SRCM is officially created by Babuji on May 30, 1945 in Shahjahanpur, its statutes are registered in Lucknow. In 1946, he releases his 1st book, “Commentaries on the 10 commands of Sahaj Marg”. Then in 1948-49, he is joined by personalities from Uttar Pradesh, such as Dr. SP Srivastava, judge ML Chaturvedi and his daughter, Kum Kasturi.In 1955, Babuji releases his famous book “Reality at Dawn”, and his notoriety overflows Uttar Pradesh. Men of the south join him. Men such as Dr. KC Varadachari and Raghavendra Rao of Karnataka. KC Narayana, son of Varadachari, also joined him in 1956. Then Parthasarathi Rajagopalachari also known as Chari arrives in 1964. Varadachari creates Sahaj Marg Research Institute (SMRTI) in 1965.Lakshmi Narasimhan marks the beginning of the internationalization of Sahaj Marg. He leaves to teach it in Copenhagen in 1968-69. On June 18, 1970, Varadachari requests of Babuji to pay attention not “to commercialize the Mission”, but he dies the following year while his Narayana son undertakes a trip in the USA. Meanwhile, Chari is appointed secretary general of the mission in 1970. Then Babuji and Chari make their first common voyage in the west in 1972. They will then often appear in company of Andre Poray and Dr. Hans Gangloff.On March 3, 1974, Babuji (apparently) names Chari as his successor in front of witnesses, Donald Sabourin and Kasturi. In 1976 the ashram of Shahjahanpur is built. Babuji registers a complaint for the theft of 4 blank (signed) letters with the heading of the SRCM. In 1979, Babuji entrusts to Narayana that he will have to work alongside Chari in the future.In 1980, in Munich, he declares to JM (?) that he has named Chari as his successor, but André Poray shows up there as a serious rival for Chari. Babuji is less available for the groups of abhyasis and Chari becomes reticent. Still around 1980, Babuji relieves Chari of all his functions.In 1981, the senior preceptors, Raghavendra Rao and Ramachandra Reddy start a non-official visit to the USA with Umeshchandra Saxena, a son of Babuji who is not even a preceptor. On April 16, 1982, Babuji however writes a letter of appointment (succession) of his son, Umeshchandra.In 1982, at the time of the voyage of Babuji to France, All becomes very sombre. André Poray is everywhere at the front of the scene, Chari who was not invited is relegated to the sidelines. Babuji is very sick. He tells to his sister that he wants to go to the police because someone wants to make an attempt on his life, which he will finally not do. On September 2, he writes to MD Jahagirdar that Chari is deviating from the initial teaching, that he is presenting himself illegitimately as his successor and that he has tried on several occasions to poison him for 4 years, but that he has found his successor. He does not name him but also announces that his successor will have to be accompanied by Srivastava, Narayana and Kashi2 (?) Ram Agarwal and Nasib Chand. He also writes to Kasturi that he has named somebody as his successor without specifying the name.In 1983, contradictory messages of the various factions flow, including from some other successors of Lalaji. Babuji dies on April 19, (1983). Chari immediately presents his letter of nomination. Raghavendra Rao and Ramachandra Reddy, with Umeshchandra at their head, declare that the letter of Chari is a forgery. The family of Babuji does not propose Umeshchandra as successor immediately, but instead, his elder brother Prakash, then his grandson, Charad. A legal battle for the control of the ashram begins. Chari travels to the west to seek support there.Everyone is in Shahjahanpur for the birthday of Lalaji in February 1984. A “Working Committee” is set up in haste, on February 6. An (alleged) attempt at poisoning of the clan of Chari takes place.KC Narayana, who belongs to the Working Committee considers that the letter of the son of Babuji is false and that the letter of Chari is valid. The grandson of Babuji recognizes that it is a forgery. Kasturi decides in favour of Chari. But the Working Committee decides to name Umeshchandra the Spiritual Representive. It names SP Srivastava chairman of the Working Committee while waiting until the spirits are calmed, because the positioning of Kasturi in favour of Chari starts an open conflict between the factions.Under these conditions, Chari constitutes another “Working Committee” in Hyderabad where he is proclaimed president. A new Californian SRCM will thus be(registered in San Luis Obispo.In 1987, Chari again tries to seize the ashram of Shahjahanpur, but without success. Srivastava publishes the 2nd part of the autobiography of Babuji (1987-89).In August 1991, Narayana leaves the clan of Chari and creates the ISRC.In 1994, Umeshchandra brings to Srivastava his letter of nomination and makes it known that the letter of Chari is a counterfeit made from a stolen signed letterhead. He alleges also Chari to have poisoned his father. A senior preceptor accepts the letter of Umeshchandra, all then accept it and Srivastava resigns his position (interim president) to Umeshchandra Saxena who then chairs the SRCM of Shahjahanpur.One of his preceptors leaves for the USA in 1996, and creates an Internet site “sahajmarg.org” where it publishes the 2 letters of nomination of Umeshchandra and Chari. A conflict then opposes the 2 SRCM on the domain name, and the arbitration is pronounced in favour of the clan of Umeshchandra in April 2000. The clan of Chari then hires a large law firm and carries the dispute before the Federal Court of Virginia. The clan of Umeshchandra prefers to give up the case because of lack of financial means.In 2000, Kasturi suddenly opposes Chari after she is rejected by him (Chari). She then teaches Sahaj Marg by herself from Lucknow.Umeshchandra moves around the ashram of Shahjahanpur with a revolver because he is afraid for his life. In 2003, he dies of “non-natural” causes. His son Navneet Kumar Saxena succeeds him, but his young brother is the victim of a suspect road accident only 13 days later.Navneet Kumar himself is the victim of an attempted poisoning on February 3, 2006. The clan of Chari invades the ashram of Shahjahanpur on April 2 then, after the death of the senior full preceptor, Raghavendra Rao, invades also the ashram of Raichur with AP Durai in head on May 7, (2006). Testimonials in favour of the clan of the family of Babuji appear on the Web.On January 18, 2007, it is the turn of Navneet Kumar to be expressed himself on the Web. On February 7, the Indian Supreme Court rules: “Arguments heard. Orders reserved.” And Navneet creates his own site on February 22, where he publishes the 2 letters of nomination and the letter addressed to Jahagirdar where Babuji shows Chari as an “evildoer”…
March 10, 2007 3:32 PM
Anonymous said...
Is Ramachandra Reddy the guy who was murdered in a car bombing, for political reasons?If so, we can add one more on the list.Christian
March 10, 2007 11:56 PM
Anonymous said...
@ NavneetPS: if somebody comes to meet you presenting himself as me, please check it first directly with me through my blog and have this validated.Christian
March 12, 2007 1:08 AM
4d-don said...
Hi Navneet...I have read all the new documents on your site and want to thank you for your "forth-rightness" and your wanting to bring these facts to the light. Now we don't have to "believe" anymore as we can claim to "know"! We have been educated by a "view" of the facts. You were accurate and honest about your information and you have proof. I would now like to see the proof from the Chari clan that I requested repeatedly but to no avail.I appreciate your courage also as you seem to be in a struggle with some "forces" that do could be deemed as "spirits" by "spiritualists" but that is not my chosen path, and is not also the Sprituality of Raja Yoga, a system, but is more of a "charismatic" idolizing of a "personality" than a method. Having dealt with those forces all my life, I can tell you that in agreement with Michael, they have no power of their own but only have the power of the "beleivers" to play with. Such is not the case with a true "SAINT". Great men are a "force" of nature.Those who need "numbers" and "cancerous growth" are not forces of nature but are slaves of their own (material) nature. I will digest and meditate on the contents of your information and may have some questions later. I trust you will be as "forthcoming" as you have been thus far.According to the Archtypes of the Jewish Kabbalah, this is the age of the "infonaut" and the age of the Plutocrat (wealthy) and the "god-king" is long over. A few short years ago, we could not have done this....and the Plutocrats would have gotten away with it..."This is the age of Miracles and Wonders". (Paul Simon) Education is of the dynamic "Truth" being formed and trans-forming...so "in-formation"!I (we) am familiar with some of the support that Chari has received in the "business/industrial" sector(Vikram Group and the trust fund of Seth Ballaram Chaudhary) as well as from the neo-conservative, fundamentalist, "nationalist" community. These are some groups (forces) that are exerting their power all over the globe as the demands of a "smaller footpint" becomes the environmental paradigm of an emerging "GLOBAL" community. Have you seen any overt collusion between Chari and other "nationalist" and/or "fundamentalist" groups such as those that are trying to bring back the "manu" laws back into force in India? Do you care to reveal that here? If not here, by "e-mail"?... IN-FORMATION (all points of views (POV) of the facts) will set us Free (from doubt)...4d-don
March 12, 2007 2:12 AM
Anonymous said...
Don, you mean as I do that Chari works for another ideology/force than spirituality?It is difficult to understand what you mean, if you could clarify with a clearer language.Christian
March 12, 2007 6:24 AM
Anonymous said...
I have been also through the materials presented on the website of the SRCM s.I have 3 questions:1) Why Chari was not assisting the working committee? Was it because he was welcome as it seems he was not welcome in Paris, in spite of the invitation?2) Why some dates have been modified in wc_meeting_feb_1984.html and gc_meeting_feb1984.html?3) Why was Sarnad later in the SRCMtm (I saw him there in 1999)?
March 12, 2007 6:55 AM
Anonymous said...
PS: Christian
March 12, 2007 6:56 AM
Navneet said...
Dear ChristianANswer to you questions are as follows.:1) Why Chari was not assisting the working committee? Was it because he was welcome as it seems he was not welcome in Paris, in spite of the invitation?Chari was not a member of Working Committee after being removed as Scretary by Babuji in 1980. Hence is name does not figure. He did present his nomination while the body of Babuji was still burning in the cremation ceremony as an individual not a working committee member. When people objected asking him to wait till the body is completely burned but he did not even have the courtesy to wait till the body is completely cremated.2) Why some dates have been modified in wc_meeting_feb_1984.html and gc_meeting_feb1984.html?Dates were may be wrongly typesd and actual were corrected on the same. If you notice in point 6 of last page the date is written correctly. and the second date that of will offcourse was wrongly written and then re-typed over it. remember we did not have computers at that time in India.Same is the case in GC meeting letter it is written rightle later. 3) Why was Sarnad later in the SRCMtm (I saw him there in 1999)?This is the falacy which we had had to face. After he made the circular he despatched 1st lot and then he was asked not to despatch others to all by Chari but, we really don't know the reason why he did not despatch all and we soon came to know that he has joined hands with Chari.We were lucky that some of them received it and they have remained with us till date.You would also now appreciate that My father in betterment of the mission and for the sake that mission does not break up why he agreed for Chairman of Goodwill committee so that a senior may act as bridge with Chari. That is Dr. S.P. Srivastava was made Chairman as he was an old Abhyasi/Preceptor. It is only when things could not be controlled by him for a decade long attempt. then my father had to atep in back completely and deal with the situation himself.Hope the above answers your query and also proves many a stories told to you by others being false too. Rest I leave it to you to judge.RegardsNavneet
March 12, 2007 10:58 AM
Alexis said...
Dear Navneet,I thank you to have published the minutes of working committee and general body.I will read that with a great attention Alexis.
March 12, 2007 1:29 PM
Navneet said...
Dear AlexisCorrectionThe SRCM is officially created by Babuji on July 21, 1945 in Shahjahanpur, its statutes are registered in Bareilly.As desired by all and especially you I have put up the Minutes of meeting of Working Committee, General Body and circular.RegardsNavneet
March 12, 2007 2:58 PM
Anonymous said...
Dear Navneet,If I try to go back to the fundamentals by feeling with the heart, I feel that the condition of Chari is very high. I feel something of the same nature that emanates from Babuji, and this feeling makes me think that Chari is, spiritually speaking, the spiritual representative, because I feel the connection with divine through him, to an extent that it is not present anywhere else.However, when I consider what Chari does with the SRCMtm and with the abhyasis, it looks so bad and so wrong that what I say in the previous paragraph cannot be true.If I add all the points I have analysed, and the points of history you reveal, the guy appears really bad.On the other hand, I consider, after having been for nearly one year under the care of Br. Narayana, how his work has helped me accessing a new spiritual growth that the "spiritual representative" was not able to give. I also remember the feeling of subtlety that is associated to transmission at ISRC, which drives me to think that I may not be able to make any judgement of spiritual matters based on feelings.Then, I see all this division between senior people who are surely more able than I am with spiritual matters, and were able to take position based on this.When I put all this together, I have to admit that I am completely lost, for my feelings and my mind do conflict on the conclusion.I whish I will find guidance to god.Christian
March 12, 2007 9:28 PM
Anonymous said...
Dearest Brother,Babuji said that "the true cry of the aspirant brings the Master to the door."Yours, B.
March 13, 2007 6:01 AM
Alexis said...
Dear Navneet,Sister Kasturi wasn't in the working committee ?S.A. Sarnad joined Chari's group just after this date.Today, K.C. Narayana say Chari's letter wasn't a forgery and that Chari was president but not the representative. But he was in the working committee. What did he say at this time ?Do you have any idea of the reasons of these men and woman to go with Chari ?I know that is no facts, but how we can explain that these people choose Chari ? What is your impressions about this situation ?ThanksAlexis
March 13, 2007 12:23 PM
Anonymous said...
Navneet - See Edits: Wikipedia Shri Ram Chandra Mission, Wikipedia Sahaj Marg, Wikipedia Sahaj Marg Philosophy."I am raising a voice against anybody who is misrepresenting Babuji's system to others." Best, T.S.
March 13, 2007 2:10 PM
Navneet said...
Dear AlexisSome reasons have history behind them and some benefits. All of this is a long story which starts of 10 years before babuji's Physical demise.Such facts cannot be explained in writing.RegardsNavneet
March 13, 2007 4:00 PM
Alexis said...
Dear Navneet and all other old abhyasis or senior preceptors,I'm sure that's a long story. I'm really sorry you don't want to write it, even in resume. I think we could better understand reasons behind facts if we have some light...I hope some of you could try to explain this long story in writings.The contrary should be a pity !
March 13, 2007 5:54 PM
Anonymous said...
who knows what propels individuals for certain actions.Some are propelled for short term gains ,others hv obligatory compulsions arising out of personal reasons,some follow the others with out thinking etc etc.All the abhysis know the reasons very well but it is not prudent to spell that now till the pendency of case in supreme court.But let me counter you with a question . Why did each & every one who went with Chari left him eventually ?? does it mean that once reality of Chari got revealed ........??May be if Umesh Bhai had assumed president ship at that moment things would hv been different??But that would hv violated Babuji's instrs of waiting for 10 years till such time as filtering of non desireables gets completed.As an Abhyasi i see a certain pattern unfolding . Ravan was killed when it was most appropriate & not earlier.regds/vkc
March 13, 2007 7:31 PM
Anonymous said...
As an abhyasi I see a mess.I analyse it and come to a conclusion.I feel with the heart and come to another.Sahaj Marg has been covered by evil, this is the only thing for sure. For evil has covered the world and poisonned the heart and mind of all its people to such an extent that some start to think as real bible's prophecies. Division is everywhere and it is no more possible to understand things clearly.I am very sad that even with some abilities, I do not find the possibility to come to a conclusion.I have to let things happen and guidance come as it wants, for I recognize I am unable to chose.Christian
March 14, 2007 12:17 AM
Anonymous said...
Babuji said that "if you transmit to a thief, he will become a perfect thief".Thus, no doubt, the important emphasis laid on the regular cleaning practice in Sahaj Marg:"Evening - Sit for half an hour with a suggection to yourself that all complexities and impurites including grossness, darkness etc. are going out of the whole system through the backside in the form of smoke or vapour. Do not meditate on those things which we want to get rid of. Simply brush them off."This was the instruction given by Babuji, as contained in his book "Some Important Features of Sahaj Marg" - 2nd edition published 1981 by Shri Ram Chandra Mission, Shahjahanpur, and elsewhere.Yours, M.
March 14, 2007 6:01 AM
Anonymous said...
Please compare Babuji's simple, subtle suggestion for the cleaning practice (as given above) with the following examples of what is being given out now on other web-sites, as purporting to be part of the practice of Sahaj Marg:Exaample 1)"The adherent is to sit for half an hour with a suggestion to him/her self that all complexities and impurities includinggrossness, darkness etc. are going out of the whole system through the back in the form of smoke or vapour and that in their place the sacred current of the Divine is entereing his/her heart from the Master's heart. One should not meditate on those things which one wants to get rid of like all the attachments to family, friends, pets, country, culture, etc...The adept should simply brush them off".Example 2)"In the evening again sit in the same posture for at least half an hour, thinking that the complexities, the network of your previous thoughts and grosness and the solidity in your constitution as melting away, or evaporating in the form of smoke, from your backside and that in its place the sacred current of the divine is entering your heart from the Master's heart. It will help you to purge your mind and make you receptive to the efficatious influence of our great Master". (Both these quotations are given by people who have adopted Chari as their "Master").Babuji was usually very specific and careful when giving out instructions. It occurs to me that the changes made in the Cleaning practice by these people who are trying to follow the Sahaj Marg system of Raja Yoga may very well be deleterious and damaging, and, if being taught and practised in this way, as it obviously is, could very well result in a curvature away from what was intended, leading to an ever increasing error, a corruption which, though apparently small & fairly harmless,is yet so significant in this context that, if left unchecked, it could very well lead to the sort of dire consequences that we have been seeing, many of which seem to be altogether quite away from the spirit, real practice and philosophy of Sahaj Marg.Yours, M.
March 14, 2007 6:45 AM
Anonymous said...
Dear M,Have you analysed the real manipulative trick hidden in the first instruction they give through this core practice of cleaning, it is amazing!!I had forgotten that! Thanks to remind me!! I should go back to read the analyses I published on my blog last year...Here I analyse it for you."One should not meditate on those things which one wants to get rid of like all the attachments to family, friends, pets, country, culture, etc...The adept should simply brush them off"They first use a programming of people by a negative structure in the sentence, which is distracting and intended to break conscious defenses.The negation is about meditating: we should not meditate.However, negation is associated with a positive statement embedded in the negation, and which is "we want to get rid of".This is superimposing two logical states causing a confusion that simply can't be handled by the logical system of waking or conscious state (OR). On the contrary, subconscious has the way to process this with its parallel AND logics.This is some trick that people usally run to induce hypnotic compulsion in subconscious. They are also very careful not to make a positive statement that would wake the conscious system back to on. For instance, they don't say: you must get rid of this and that. Nevertheless, what they want people get rid of is enumerated nonchalantly after stating "like", which makes the statement banal, and which means examples from a non-exhaustive list that are not really important or to be the focus of.But in fact, they say to people's subconscious exactly what they must get rid of, and it is scary: familly, friends, culture, country.All this is packed first in a way that will shunt the conscious analysis efficiently, the programming phase - giving to subconscious the matter for future injonction.Once in, you activate the content by giving the injunction: "brush them off".Thanks!Christian
March 14, 2007 8:10 AM
Anonymous said...
This is from Chari's own mouth...Master’s New Year Address (2002) (Oh yes!...Chari does not want to be called "Master"?? You gotta laugh!!)…So, since you asked me to speak, I’m speaking. I hope you are listening carefully, and you will ATTEMPT to follow the practise sincerely, with dedication, with absolute faithfulness to the practice, so that within a few short months, you will be able to feel in yourself that, “Yes, there is something in me which has changed. Yes, I see it myself, therefore I don’t need others to tell me anything about it. I am happy, so I don’t need other people to make me happy. I am content, I don’t need anything else to make me content. Where I sit in peace, thinking of my Master, I have the sole companion in my life whom I need. I don’t need anybody else to give me company. Then you will find happiness in Sahaj Marg , you will find fulfillment in Sahaj Marg . You will be ALONE but NEVER LONELY. YOU WILL HAVE NO RELATIVES, but you will have the one friend without whom we can do nothing and whom we don’t have, though we have many friends! He who has no Master, may have many friends but no real friend. He who has the Master may have only one friend but He is the real friend. And may that true friend be with you, guide you, help you, and take you to Himself. Happy New Year, and may the Master bless you. Thank you.NB..."No Friends" and "no relatives" means us, the family and the friends... If that is not "damaging" to the family, What is? Is this from God or ?? What is a negative in Hindu mythology? Ravanna?? This is the flawed theology and philosophy (or no philosophy) that has been called "Sahaj Marg" and called "spirituality"....Happy New Year to you too! Master Chari!! The Master of Disaster!!Rightness....From one of his books!!I have known Master refusing a beggar five paise. I have known Master castigating our foreign abhyasis when they came and paid the rikshawwala ten rupees when the standard fare was three rupees. He was not generous. He was always right. Rightness does not mean generosity, rightness does not mean honesty, it does not mean anything. .....Do you get the "MEME" or message there? It means "obey" what I (or the Mission) tells you!! About as dangerous as the catholic priest (who forgives the sins and then "falls" into scandals as the power structure is too "unbalanced") or the amim?...Flawed theology (God is Male)leads to flawed philosohy that leads to flawed psychology and flawed institutions and that reap flawed "characters" or "clones"... who are perpetually at war for the great prize of the Material!!Cyril Borg
March 14, 2007 9:10 AM
Anonymous said...
Gee, I was just surfing and found this one.... We are all "honest" at Sahaj Marg (tm) or SRCM (tm) registered in California, US of A also....They have more gall than brains!!What a mess!! Direct quotes from The Master of Disaster!!Sahaj Marg is a "democracy" now!!Now suppose you are able to move these walls and make the room bigger and bigger…still there is an outside, there is an inside. Still there are doors. Still there is the power of admission, and the power of exclusion. And even then, if the doors are locked, you will be prisoners of your own creation. Yes or no? Yes. I mean, it's very clear. So until there are no walls, you cannot say, "We're a free people," because now you are only selecting the people you will accept. It is like a club, a select club, a rich man's club, a club of power, you see. Because, suppose any organisation has the power of accepting or rejecting, can we say it is a free organisation? Yes or no? No.Sahaj Marg has no such restriction. Everybody, from anywhere in the world is welcome. Everybody can come, everybody can go. There is no restriction. There are no fees. We are not having any restriction of education. Is it a free organisation? Is it human? Is it the real democracy of a free people, for a free people, by a free people? Yes or no? (Audience: "Yes.")So Sahaj Marg is today, in my opinion, the only organisation in this world fulfilling the requirements of this definition of "Liberté, egalité, fraternité" [Freedom, equality, fraternity]. Vive le Sahaj Marg! [Long live Sahaj Marg!] (applause).And the crowd goes wild...It' s entertainment, not spirituality!!Cyril Borg
March 14, 2007 9:24 AM
Anonymous said...
That last quote was from:http://www.srcm.org.in/literature/recent.speeches/030713_Swiss.jspand is titled:FreedomTalk given by Shri P. Rajagopalachariat Cossonay, Switzerland on July 13, 2003
March 14, 2007 9:30 AM
Alexis said...
Dear Navneet and all other old abhyasis or senior preceptors,I'm coming back with my questions because I hadn't answersSister Kasturi wasn't in the working committee ?S.A. Sarnad joined Chari's group just after this date.Today, K.C. Narayana say Chari's letter wasn't a forgery and that Chari was president but not the representative. But he was in the working committee. What did he say at this time ?Do you have any idea of the reasons of these men and woman to go with Chari ?I know that is no facts, but how we can explain that these people choose Chari ? What is your impressions about this situation ?I'm sure that's a long story. I'm really sorry you don't want to write it, even in resume. I think we could better understand reasons behind facts if we have some light...I hope some of you could try to explain this long story in writings.The contrary should be a pity !
March 14, 2007 10:39 PM
Anonymous said...
Dear Christian,Sadly, I am not in a position to answer many of your questions being ignorant of the facts involved, but hope that someone else here may be able to do so.For myself, I can say that, following Babuji's death, I understood that Chari had been appointed as President of the Mission & accepted him as that & as a "senior" brother preceptor. I had known him previously as Babuji's travelling companion & had understood that he had been Secretary of the Mission.(I did not know that, as Navneet informs us, Babuji had, apparently, earlier removed Chari from the position of Secretary).I was, however, disturbed by some people's apparent need for a new "Master", as I did not feel this need, &, indeed, Babuji had & has always continued to satisfy everything in this direction. I could understand that people who had not known Babuji would perhaps look to Chari to fulfill a similar role for them, but for me this was not possible, nor necessary.I too felt uncomfortable with the much of the proselytising that had begun, & experienced & witnessed other indications that all was not as I would like it to be. Indeed, the very fact that I felt uncomfortable was an indicator in itself. I have to tell you that Babuji never left me feeling in any way unsatisfied - any answer to my questions were always everything that I could have wished, & more, & better than I could ever have imagined for myself. He always answered the deepest needs and wishes of my heart. He healed me & cured me, body & soul, & was everything that I had ever longed for. It was, of course, out of the question that I should need or look for another, and remains so to this day. Why would I?I continue my practice as before - Babuji said that if ever you are in doubt about something just meditate on it & the answer will come, & I have found this to be true, thank God, beyond my wildest dreams. The organisation of the Mission as "SRCM tm" seems to have continued apace, but numbers of extraordinary stories have reachedmy ears which did not encourage one to play a part in it.Although my own experience differs from Michael's, I was pleased to find his web-site for the honesty & genuine truth-seeking of his points of view, & also for some of the history of his own experiences that he presented.Equally, I have looked at your web-site & read your letters, & although I cannot fully understand or appreciate everything found there I nonetheless applaud your courage & honesty, & your true, brave, seeking heart. This seems to show all the right signs of the spiritual "thirst" & longing that Babuji spoke of as necessary - you will surely find the answer to your prayers.Though I have been sad to read of Navneet's experiences & that of his Family, it is nonethless a joy to have some clarity about events, & to know that he is not wishing to re-interpret Babuji's teachings, but only to present them as they are. Also, there are issues here which are serious ones.Babuji said that there should be no secrets in spirituality. I applaud Navneet's courage & bravery & sincerity. There seems to be a real craving now for balance in the situation, and this is what is needed.In my experience, most of Babuji's work was (&, I guess, is) done in silence. Babuji called Sahaj Marg a "spiritual science". He also said: "Read and enjoy. Do and feel".To me, once, he wrote: "Being becomes becoming."All blessings to you.With affectionate thoughts,B.
March 15, 2007 5:46 AM
Anonymous said...
Dear Alexis & Christian,So sorry, I realise that I have confused your letters in trying to reply to some queries. Deepest apologies & I hope you will understand.B.
March 15, 2007 5:54 AM
Anonymous said...
Dear B,Thanks for your support.Christian
March 15, 2007 10:29 PM
Anonymous said...
Don't know how much relevance this may have, but I was actually staying at Babuji's house in Shahjahanpur at the same time as Don Sabourin in February/March 1975, so I can confirm that he was there then. As you say, he was a Canadian nurse by profession - Babuji called him "Mr Don" - but Don sadly passed away a few years ago. He was staying alone at the house on a prolonged visit, but I think that his wife Jackie was due to join him just before he left. I am fairly sure that he spoke of having stayed with Babjuji for a shorter period the previous year, which would have been 1974. As he was the only other "Western" visitor at Babjuji's house at that time, we saw each other quite often, but I do not recall him saying anything about Chari or the succession. I did meet him a few times in later years, but this was in Babuji's lifetime, & again, the subject of any "succession" was not raised. After Babuji's death in 1983 I heard from various sources that Don had been a witness in some way to Babuji's appointment of Chari, as President, spiritual successor or what was not made quite clear, but unfortunately I never had the opportunity to discuss the matter further with Don. However, I understood from others that Don had accepted Chari in some way as a spiritual successor to Babuji, as some others (abhyasis) tried to convince me of the viability of this, citing Don's "witness" somehow as evidence. There was also mention of a letter, but at that time I had never seen this, or met anyone who had. Presumably this is the letter of 1974 presented by Chari which Navneet has kindly shown us, but at the time it was all somewhat vague. However, that's as much as I can tell you about it from my own knowledge.Yours, T.S.
March 17, 2007 4:04 AM
Anonymous said...
In July, during the birthday celebrations, it will be officially announced:SRCM will from now on be called:Shri Rajagopala Chari Mission.
March 17, 2007 11:52 PM
4d-don said...
Hi TS...Don Sabourin was a "psychiatric" nurse as well as his wife, Jackie. Don, having been "resurerrected" by Babuji (according to him) after an incident where he was electrocuted while an electric fan was being repaired. His vital signs were gone and Babuji apparently "revived" him. Upon his return to Canada, went back to school and became a Homeopathic MD and then moved his practice (and family) to Asia (Singapore) to be nearer to Babuji.It is quite possible that Don was a witness to an event that was later called "the succession" but I nowhere see any "signature of witness" on the documents shown on Navneet's "SRCM Shahjahanpur" site, (not on Chari's nor Umesh's or any other documents)...For Babuji who was versed in "legal documents" to not have his signature "witnessed" on the document is hard to fathom. All legal documents require a "witness" to the signature. It is only when one compares many documents written by Babuji, that Chari's succession papers become "suspect" as the language and the "lack of mention" of "higher authorities", Lalaji, The Great Master, etc...become evident. Don was not a legal expert and could have been fooled like anyone else. If he was a witness, his signature should appear on the document to confirm that... A legal document, without signature of the witnesses (2) is suspect. My will is witnessed by two friends...We are told on Elodie's Blog that "Sister" Kasturi Chaturvedi and Dinesh Kumar Saxena, grandson of Lalaji and Owner and Web-Master of the NaqshMuMRa site, are now Preceptors of Chari's SRCMtm, registered in California...can anyone confirm that?PS...Jackie Sabourin, who was on the board of directors of SRCM (Canada), is not on this year...but see who is (democratically??) on the Board of Directors (7) (and hence controls the society)2004# Name Position 1 PARTHASARATHI RAJAGOPALACHARI PRESIDENT 2 KIM HANSEN VICE PRESIDENT 3 TOM HANSEN SECRETARY/TREASURER 4 JOHN BARLOW DIRECTOR 5 CHRISTINE PRISLAND DIRECTOR 6 JACKIE SABOURIN DIRECTOR 7 GIRISH A DIXIT DIRECTOR 8 SANTOSH KHANJEE DIRECTOR 9 STEVE B KUNIN DIRECTOR 10 RANGARAO RAGAVENDRAN DIRECTOR 11PATRICK FLEURY DIRECTOR Directors/Trustees and Like Officials1 Name: RAJAGOPALACHARI PARTHASARATHI PRESIDENT2 Name: HANSEN KIM VICE PRESIDENT3 Name: RAVINDRAN RAVINDRANSECRETARY4 Name: BHATTER AJAY5 Name: PRISLAND CHRISTINEDIRECTOR6 Last Name: JOSEPH JAMESDIRECTOR7 Name: KHANJEE SANTOSH ADIRECTORSee how many are Canadian? One even has two same names...Santosh Khanjee lives in Austin, Texas, James Joseph lives in Michigan,USA, and Ravindran, Ravindran is an "alien"...Christine Prisland, and Kim Hansen are Canadian. But at least, this year, Patrick Fleury (France), is gone from the SRCM Canada Board of Directors...That was the ultimate control mechanism...How about someone from Japan or Africa to represent Canada? That is the "democracy" that Chari talks about at the SRCM tm, registered in California... see posts above...4d-don
March 18, 2007 12:48 AM
Anonymous said...
To Navneet Kumar: On March 12, 2007 1:17:00 PDT PM 4d-don posted a comment on his own blog (http://4d-don.blogspot.com/). Part of his comment is: "For questions to Navneet Kumar, he goes and replies to questions on this site:http://tmtindia.blogspot.com/2007/01/justice-should-be-for-all-not-only-for.html (make sure you get all the link)".I am still searching for the answer to the comment of AB (March 12, 2007 5:53:00 PDT AM on http://4d- don.blogspot.com)on https://www2.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=1994262436870281601&postID=2282680002029694976.AB
March 18, 2007 1:41 PM
4d-Don said...
Hi Navneet...Refering to the above-mentionned comment by AB, I am copying his "comment" on my blog so you might see it...and answer it... if you please...4d-don...This is AB's comment....Anonymous said...I am observing your blog for a while now.First of all I’d like to say something to your own policy. Obviously you do not publish all the comments given to your blog. I couldn’t find a comment sent last week and I saw somebody else complaining about the same fact. At least for my own comment I can’t find any reason for not giving it to the public neither for the length of it, nor for the content. But maybe, it was only against the rules not to sign.For my opinion M i c h a e l seemed to be the one (of the regularly commenting people) who tries the most to deal with the subject objectively. But I’d like to point out to him, too, the fact of the true difficulty of an application of the (Western) ideal of democracy in the given field.On March, 9 he says“.......It is an organziation that has a single Master with no peer, claiming to lead the only valid path to spiritual enlightenment in the world today. Unquestioning obedience to the Master and his Organization is required of all disciples...”I agree with his critics that there is a claim to possess t h e path for the highest spiritual attainment. But as far as I know this claim already originated in the time of Babuji. For the question of (total) obedience to a Master I’d like to repeat an already told example: You will not find one mountain guide who will accept leading you to any mountain peak even on a basic agreement of democratic rules. I don’t know if you ever read the books of Graf Durckheim about the master-disciple relationship. I read about a Zen master of New York who told frankly if he would treat his disciples the way he should (and he normally would do in his country) the police would be in his place in New York the very next day. - I think it is important always to think about the intention behind an action. As you seem to be interested in the Sufi Tradition, maybe, you know the book of Irina Tweedie “Daughter Of Fire - Diary of a spiritual teaching by a Sufi master.“ Her teacher was Adhauliya Mahatma Radha Mohan Lal Ji of Kanpur. I don’t understand why you don’t criticize the Sufi way,too. Anyway, the subject is a very sensitive one. In the discussion about democracy you miss the point.Nearly by accident I saw Christian’ s (?) other blog [http://spydi.blogspot.zoom/]. I took only a very short glance on it, but I was very surprised (if he is the author) to read the following:“....Democracy was adapted for a certain type of educated citizens.Democracy has created a soft world, in which the next generations grew, slowly falling into decadence.Giving democracy to such people was dangerous, and that is why, progressively, the system got locked and more and more totalitarian.... [In your blog here I don’t want to comment his thougths on the other block about Hitler ect. ]Comments to N a v n e e t K u m a r and his remarks I gave already (see above). One point in his (the following) remarks I‘d like to comment by asking him a question:Navneet Kumar‘s remark: “....After about 3 to 4 months Sh. Jahangirdhar also died on the spot at his residence soon after he was given pills in name of medicine by an individual.the individual was beaten in closed room and asked who was behind it he said I can't name him otherwise he will kill me t o o . Now I am not saying who is behind it and what was the benefit he could have got...”My question: “Mr. Navneet Kumar, I am able to imagine what happened in this “closed room”. Can you explain if this is the practical application of your spiritual theory in life?Surprisingly for me is that Navneet Kumar (especially as he himself speaks about the existence of so-called super-natural powers) questions the possibility that informations of the death of his father could reach Shahjahanpur without the “help“ of the only involved people, the doctor and the nurse .Navneet’s remark:“At 3:00 PM we came to know that my father had expired. Best part is I did not give this news to my motherfor about 1/2 hour but I received a call from Shahjahanpur that one of Chari's close aid in Shahjahanpur has rung the ashram and said that Sh. Umesh Chandra is no more. I wondered that his news of death was known only to the doctor, nuse and me how could the news travel to Chari's camp.”Out of his explanations it seems to me stated, too, that Babuji (the special personality) seemed to be unable to find out who tried to make an attempt on his life.About P a r t h a s a r a t h i R a j a g o p a l a j a I read somewhere in your blog: “Any truly spiritual teacher will not impose anything of him self on the student, but will push the student to find it in his or her self. This is completely lacking in the SRCM system from the beginning..”I met P. R. several times in India and in Europe and I can’t agree with this statement. I for myself have to say that he pushed me (away )out of this reason more than once.And about master-disciple relationship I read in the same context on your blog:“The Sufi tradition treated the teacher as a friend, house guest or grandfather. It was about human interaction and learning by example. It was about actions in the real World.”As exactly is stated above the teacher i s t r e a t e d as a friend, house guest or grandfather. It is t h e d i s c i p l e you decides how he treats P. R. This means the responsibility is on the side of the disciple. Somewhere in your blog I read somebody mentioning that P. R. refused at least in the beginning to be adressed as a master.On the other hand the treatment of the disciple by the Master must not be that way: see Irina Tweedie, Daughter....For 4d-don again I’d like to ask “What is your reason for this blog?”ABMarch 12, 2007 5:53:00 PDT AM
March 18, 2007 10:59 PM
Anonymous said...
Dear Navneet et al & Anonymous,Is the announcement made by Anonymous on March 17th @ 11.52 pmthat in July SRCM name will be changed to "Shri Rajagopala Chari Mission" genuine or some kind of wry joke? If genuine, for me this would be wonderful news & an entirely appropriate solution to the problems that have been besetting the Mission for years. For that is exactly what SRCMtm actually IS, & this would be to give it its proper name. It would also allow the practitioners of the original form of Sahaj Marg & the real Shri Ram Chandra Mission to continue to carry out their business in peace, whereas at the moment this is being hampered (in the most obvious way, as with the occupation of the Ashram at Shahjahanpur, but also in many other numerous & smaller instances).However, it strikes me that there might be legal implications for the use of the initials SRCM for anything other than the Shri Ram Chandra Mission, which was after all established in 1945 under that name, & must therefore have precedence, so I would have thought that Chari would have to choose some other initials.This would certainly be the most just & best solution for everyone concerned, identifying & addressing so well the real problem as it does: i.e. that Chari's Mission may have had its roots in Shri Ram Chandra Mission, but has now become something else.If this really is true, then it would be a win/win situation, & a proper & "gentlemanly" outcome to the conflicts that have arisen. Shri Rajagopala Chari Mission could then be allowed to continue with its own expanded, adapted & modified ideas as it wished, while the Shri Ram Chandra Mission continued under Babuji's aegis.This seems to be getting close to being the perfect answer (except for the duplication of the SRCM initials for the different name). It is music to my ears & I hope to God it is NOT a joke!Chari's movement is, in fact, a schism & now definitely needs to break off on its own from the main body.Yours, M.
March 19, 2007 12:38 AM
Anonymous said...
P.S. If the announcement in the letter from Anonymous about the re-naming of SRCMtm to Shri Rajagopala Chari Mission is really true, could this be the result of some recent legal developments/court judgements in Navneet's/SRCM"Shahjahanpur"'s favour?Yours, M.
March 19, 2007 12:46 AM
Anonymous said...
"I met P. R. several times in India and in Europe and I can’t agree with this statement"I was sure by seing the style of the message that it was one of PR's dog or groupee or puppet or whatever.It is incredible, they are all speaking the same way!Christian
March 19, 2007 6:24 AM
Anonymous said...
"Is the announcement made by Anonymous on March 17th @ 11.52 pmthat in July SRCM name will be changed to "Shri Rajagopala Chari Mission" genuine or some kind of wry joke?"It must be a joke.If not, he finally shows his true face.However, in few years, it will probably have to be renamed SABMtm..."It would also allow the practitioners of the original form of Sahaj Marg & the real Shri Ram Chandra Mission to continue to carry out their business in peace"So, you too show us your true face?That's what you do with spirituality, business?Christian
March 19, 2007 6:29 AM
Anonymous said...
Dear Christian,The word "business" in this context was not intended to carry any commercial meaning, but only to indicate its other meaning of practice or activity, or, as the Dictionary puts it "matters requiring attention", "a task or errand incumbent or undertaken", "one's concerns or affairs", "action as distinguished from dialogue", "a thing used quite indefinitely", "state of being busy", "a matter or affair".Sorry for any misunderstanding - English can be a very nuanced language. It is my mother tongue so is natural for me to use in this way, but one can see just how easy it is for misunderatandings to arise.Yours, M.
March 19, 2007 12:10 PM
Anonymous said...
Hi J & Navneet KumarRE LETTER FROM J MARCH 4 @10.44Babuji had a ring of square design with I think 9 different stones in a pattern of 3:3:3. I had been told about this by some friends of his & mine as it was interesting. It seems it may have had some astrological meaning where each stone represented a different planet & its meaning & influence. I understood that this also had some place in Indian medicine & gemology, with each stone considered to have a different resonance or "vibration". Think someone may have given it to Babuji. I too saw Babuji wearing this ring. Later on I saw Chari wearing a similar ring & asked him if this was the same ring that Babuji had worn. He said "Yes" that it was & that he had "taken" (his word)it from Babuji (This was I think around the time of Babujis death). I remember I was surpised at the time - that he said he had "taken" the ring not that Babuji had "given" it to him. Can you clarify this Navneet? Was Chari with Babuji when he died?Sincerely Aurelius.
March 19, 2007 12:37 PM
4d-Don said...
Hi Aurelius...Interesting the "astrology" aspect:You mention:Babuji had a ring of square design with I think 9 different stones in a pattern of 3:3:3. I had been told about this by some friends of his & mine as it was interesting. It seems it may have had some astrological meaning where each stone represented a different planet & its meaning & influence.For those of us who, having worked towards and supported the banishment of Pluto, as a planet and to return (metaphysically) Pluto to its traditional realm, the "underworld" could have un-knowingly made Babuji's ring (and other such symbols of power) "bogus" (or taken it's power away) with its nine (3x3) gemstones in a "square grid", the realm of the "material".The resurgence of Pluto (1930's, as SRCM was being "incubated"), from which we named "plutonium" and its gift to mankind of "nuclear weaponry" and then placed it (PLUTO) into our cosmology as the "ninth planet" is now being dealt with as Pluto is being "kicked out" of the Solar System for a return to the more spiritual octave (8) of planets, 4 of matter and 4 of gas.Expose the ring that was "taken"!! It could be the source of the "philosophical" and theological corruption (by empowering the working of "imagination" or the id) in SRCMtm. The Cube with its tendency to become "dogmatic" must at this time transition to the OCTAGON (Octave) and eventually to the sphere and the "spiral" for a physical symbol or template of the representation of the Galactic Consciousness of (UNITY) that we all seek through our "spirituality". In the spiral, there are no closed borders defining the In's and Out's as anyone or anything can go into the spiral and be nurtured and freely leave the spiral un-hindered. (see a 3d spiral) When Raja Yoga, the eightfold (octave) path becomes the "trinity" of 3M's (Master, Mission, Method), one does not have to wonder any further where the "influence" or "direction" is coming from...the template is "regressive". We (as a species) evolved to comprehending a 3d reality through our interpreting (in the brain) of "perspectives". The "magic" of the 5d and 6d (five or 6 pointed stars and/or 5 (pentagon) or 6 (hexagon) sided figures in symboloby (flags) has been used by many nationalist power blocks in many cultures for centuries and even millenia. But that is for directored or vectored "material" power, and not for the un-vectored or scalar "energy" of spirituality We see the Octave in the architecture of the Taj Mahal. Christ represented our (abused and mis-used) western depiction of the 7d as the LOVE ONE ANOTHER message of the "snake eating its tail" or the Messiah coming back from the "godhead" as a "Saviour". But did the early Christians "LOVE"? ...NOT (NOT for long)!!They quickly become the "ROMAN EMPIRE" and became the "UNLOVING" slaughtering in the name of GOD, what I now call the ONE! (not MALE or FEMALE) Any "ism", being of mind and matter, (concepts and organizations, or structures) will corrupt and must be cleansed by "change" or "MOTION"...The best we have societally is "dissipating" or "sharing" of the power through "democracy", or the PEOPLE having and controlling the POWER...NOT THE MASTER, not the METHOD, and specially not the MISSION,....To give power to "Structure" or a flag is like going back to the era of the "GOD-king"... Wave a flag and watch someone charging it. ASK THE BULL why he attacks the "RED FLAG"... Because it's there!! (Could be in the "frequency" of the colour red or the agitated MOTION...of the waving of the flag...)Keep on the Sunny Side of LIFE!!4d-Don...
March 20, 2007 1:11 AM
Anonymous said...
Shree Navneet,Namaskar !Its very ironic to see the spirituality of this group, I know people who are infected by this plague, and i have first hand experience of what good this group has done to people in general.My suggestion to Chari group people is, instead of increasing the number of people in your clan, or applying control over life of people, it would be nice incase you first sought out your own life, instead of interfering into life of other kindly get your own life straight, You have no right to dictate people to do this or do that (like not to read blogs etc) since you are not capable of this position, of Guru. You are a cheater and incase you have learned anything from your so called association of spirituality then have this guts to accept the truth and leave control over life of people, let people free, those who come to you after constant brainwashing, and manipulation are subjected to your lies and manipulation, do not cause more harm to society by talking non-sense. Become courageous and answer our challenge posted on various blog’s, do not hide now, time for your exposure has come, by hiding your face in mud your past action's will not be eliminated, it is your own action's which are haunting you like monsters. face them if you have any guts of becoming a guru, you will have to prove yourself first as a person having credibility, you just cannot claim to be divine, there are many mad man like you.Why you are a cheater ? because you claim to be spiritual but you are not, your focus is to make money and grow your business, spirituality is just against this logic. Also your self attachment, and level of ego is at its highest level, it is evident from the fact that you celebrate your “happy birthday” at cost of people’s money. Your Hippocratic nature has been exposed sufficiently on blogs which you are advising people not to read.RegardsSP
March 20, 2007 2:31 AM
Anonymous said...
This was on 4d-Don's blog as a comment and I posted it on Michael's blog and now here and on Orkut...see Michael's blog (first comments)http://innercircleofsrcm.blogspot.com/4d-don said...Hi Michael and all...This message was just left as a comment on my blog...You, abhyasis are now free to talk from the "heart" that you have been "cleaning" compulsively for months and years...Now let's hear and see you make peace with your Families, friends, cultures, societies, environment...Express your "spirituality" and stop "dividing" the world...WE NEED UNITE!!!You are now FREE .... Don't blame or hide behind the Master, the Mission nor the Method anymore. You are now "responsible" for yourselves and your actions and your lives...Spirituality UNITES...Religion divides!!! Who said that?4d-don...Anonymous said...Sahaj Sandesh No.: 2007.14 – Sunday, 18 March, 2007Archived Sahaj Sandesh Messages: http://www.srcm.org/members/ssandesh/index.jspDear Sister / Brother:Blogs, wikis and various websitesThere has recently been a proliferation of information and views about Shri Ram Chandra Mission (SRCM) and Sahaj Marg distributed through email and the internet. SRCM has always maintained an open and transparent culture which promotes the expression of one’s feelings and ideas – indeed the teachings of our Masters have always encouraged abhyasis to “speak from the heart.” This being said, Abhyasis and interested seekers are to be advised that the official websites of Shri Ram Chandra Mission and the Sahaj Marg Spirituality Foundation are http://www.srcm.org and http://www.sahajmarg.org respectively. While the Mission neither encourages nor discourages any other forums, websites or online media, it is our duty to direct earnest seekers to the official websites listed above. Those who seek clarification on the Mission’s activities may also refer to the following URL: http://www.srcm.org/welcome/srcminfo.jspMarch 18, 2007 8:14:00 PDT AM4:40 PMMichael said...Don,Thanks for the post. I checked out the informational link in this memo and found the following text:"While there may be those who have experiences or feelings that are not in consonance with the above, the organization is and will always remain true to its core beliefs, and completely transparent in its functioning.We would hope that earnest spiritual seekers focus their attention on the purity of the practice and the core teachings of the Masters (spiritual guides) of Sahaj Marg, rather than being influenced by reports of individuals who may be at various stages of their own development. "Michaellater...Michael said....Barcelona, J and P J,Thanks so much for your input. Since all of you have more recent experiences, your comments mean a lot more than my dated commentary on how far the SRCM(tm) may have drifted from purity of the practice and core teachings.So welcome to the ranks of those who:"are at various levels of of their own spiritual development"- yet choose to formulate their own opinions on the practice and the SRCM organization!I found the particularl value judgment about dissenters as the most ironic of all the comments in their statement on the website.Arent we all at various stages of our own development? Who's claiming to be in a position to judge?Clearly, the official statement is that we are not worthy to have any such dissenting opinions.Please continue to comment. Your input is valuable and appreciated regardless of how you may be judged by the Inner Circle of SRCM(tm)!Michael
March 20, 2007 9:37 AM
Anonymous said...
"You are now FREE"Probably the more stupid sentence I've ever read.How can you be free when you don't even know what is behind society enslaving you, or while being into existence one is completely trapped in the universe?"SRCM has always maintained an open and transparent culture which promotes the expression of one’s feelings and ideas""always" !!!"transparent" !!!"promotes" !!!Lies.Please, go visit my blog to see how Chari proceeds with people expressing their feelings and ideas." – indeed the teachings of our Masters have always encouraged abhyasis to “speak from the heart.”"That's true, in theory, but in fact it is not the case. Speak from the heart, and not only at the SRCMtm, and you will see if there is not social pressure of any sort to have you go back to silence."While the Mission neither encourages nor discourages any other forums, websites or online media,"Of course, because they can't control it! They will not admit that their strongest wish is to have all these media shut down... These media of free expression are really disturbing their plans. Another lie to try to maintain a gentle smile on their faces when trully they have a pain in the ass." it is our duty to direct earnest seekers to the official websites listed above."... where they will find the official propaganda and all the manipulative stuff concocted by impostors."the organization is and will always remain true to its core beliefs,"Once again I have to repeat that it is not enough to be sincere when one is to claim guiding people. If their core belief is that they act under master's will when in fact their own desire is master's will, it is very easy to buy tranquility of mind that way. However, in reality they still misguide people." and completely transparent in its functioning."Another lie."We would hope that earnest spiritual seekers focus their attention on the purity of the practice"Please read my post of March 14, 2007 8:10 AM on this page concerning the "purity of the practice". It has been transformed from what Babuji taught, in order to better control and manipulate people. The technique itself, according to other groups following the teaching of Babuji has been deviated to such an extent that it is no more able to bring people to the ultimate as promised. This was a cause of resignations of senior personalities during Chari's reign - among others." and the core teachings of the Masters (spiritual guides) of Sahaj Marg,"It seems that there is only one master of Sahaj Marg, Babuji, who created Sahaj Marg as a synthesis from diverse streams of spirituality and his own research. Who are these other masters of Sahaj Marg? It can't be Lalaji, he died before the creation of Sahaj Marg. It can only be Chari, but it seems he has altered Sahaj Marg enough to have its spirit not understood by most of the followers. A master of Sahaj Marg? Really?" rather than being influenced by reports of individuals who may be at various stages of their own development."Suspicion created in minds of people about these reports = manipulation for mind control. People are smart enough if they want, to think by themselves about all the informations they can collect on the web and all the observations they can do by themselves in the sect. They do not have to make a choice of allegiance between an immuable truth that only those manipulators would possess, and what other people claim somewhere else. They have to be free to think by themselves and see by themselves that reality is complex, grey, and not black or white. They are not to rely on manipulators who want to enslave them for their business to turn, nor on other reports of individuals "at various stages of their own development" - which is also true. Limiting their possibility to these two alternatives only is once again manipulative.Christian
March 20, 2007 9:04 PM
4d-Don said...
Hi Christian, SP and the clans...Having worked in the "Information gathering and dessimination" sector in one of my last job "incarnations" (in this lifetime), I am concerned that the words that constitute "information" are understood. Once they are "understood", (even "new" words and "made up" words) and then agreed upon as to their usage and meaning, we then reach the "acceptance" level of these words in sentences to convey the "information" in "Information" packets (announcements, buzz words, sound bites, Poems, songs, etc.) They (words) are sometimes compared to the "quantized" units of "information" (such as in the quantuum theory in physics where photons are the quanta of the "electromagnetic wave" or light). In computer language, they (words) become made up or formed by "bits" and "bytes" that make up letters to form words etc...The job of the "information" gatherer and dessiminator is to reach the point where we can agree on the words and the meaning of the words spoken...Wether those words are "lived-up to" or implemented is not the job of the information gatherer and dessiminator. When the Mission "frees" it's abhyasis to "read" the blogs and other sources of info on the Internet, even that information that is not in "consonance" with "itself", then that is one "part" done. I have to say that is "GOOD" and get to the next issue, like the flaws in the theology or philosophy. The Mission is not stopping anyone from "reading" the blogs so the are "free" to read....Good for the MISSION to SEE THE LIGHT!! That is why I like Raja Yoga, the yoga of the MIND...Now the less "logical" approach that culminates in "name calling" and "insults" such as "stupid" and "PR dogs" (to a woman from Germany), is not the "rational" approach and will not reap "rational" results, but could reach UNITY eventually, as everything does eventually and ultimately...so not to worry. It's the "journey" that is important...Do we want to reach the ONE "fighting" and "name calling" or do we want to reach the UNITY by "talking", dialoguing, debating, and other "forms" of exchange of ideas and philosophies? We only have MOTION in SPACE to play with...(Time being the measurement of MOTION and thus just an "abstraction" or "illusion"...) If dialogue is possible then I prefer that...If not, call in the "name callers" and the "insulters" realizing that we are on a slippery slope towards the "red end" of the emotional spectrum that culminates in "violence" and war...It could be the message to THE MISSION: Deal with the "information" and the "Information gatherers"(the blue force) who want to reach "agreement" in logic at least or else you will have to deal with the "memes" that you have planted in the more emotional (the red force) and the more "in-your face" ex-abhyasis like Christian and SP... The next generation will be more "in your face" if the current societal situation is an indication.I will not tell you what to do, but I will distance myself from that "red" approach in favour of the "blue" more "cool" approach and try to adress some other issues for Society at large such as: The growth sector in the next 50 years will certainly be the "non-profit" sector" and "charities" which include religions and "spiritual" Missions such as SRCMtm and SRCM Shahjahanpur and many more...Should the desire of "leadership" or "president-ship" automatically null and void one's candidacy for the "spiritual representative" of a Church or Spiritual organization?When one uses lawyers, courts, police, body guards, military, and other forces or aspects of the "MATERIAL" world to settle issues, then the "spiritual" representative 's claim authority from "THE ONE" or GOD...(or others beyond the grave)...can certainly be "limited" by the "assembly" that make up that organization. Muzzle or control the Master!! And the "Abstain" prerogative does not work here also as that "arm's length", becomes too diffucult to "gauge" when one deals with the "other worldly". We might learn from the "tribal" witch doctor who does not have "political" power except in very limited cases...In Spiritual and Religious terms, of course, anyone can claim that and/or any "authority" including a powerful reward and punishment "system" beyond the scope of physical and societal laws and mores, but should that "authority" carry over into the physical "working" of the organization and society at large?The Pope was forced to give up much of his worldly political power in favour of the role of "Spritual head" of the Catholic Church. The Cardinals elect the pope. Should the broader "Assembly" should elect the POPE? (In prayer of course)... We have the technology, we can do it...We can and will do it (use a very broad and direct democracy), and soon we will be voting on issues and "on line" so we might as well get ready. Being spiritual, we are "ahead" of the pack of "reality" seekers are we not?There's a French saying: Ne cherchez pas midi a quatorze heures!! (Don't look for noon at 2 PM)(This SRCM issue that has lingered for 20 years and is still unsolved could have been solved in a much shorter time...What a waste of Time and effort that translates to money...)When you have the solution, stop searching, and see to it that the words agreed upon are implemented!!There's a job for the "SPIRITUAL POLICE" or the "SPIRITCOP"...;-))Would being "betazoid" be an desireable asset for a "spritcop"....lolYou gotta laugh b'cause it's not funny!! ;-()4d-don...
March 21, 2007 6:05 AM
Anonymous said...
From: "Heart to Heart - Vol. l" by P. Rajagopalachari. (Pages 270-280 "Who is a Master?") lst Edition 1988 - published by Shri Ram Chandra Mission, Pacific Grove, CA, USA."But some people persist in addressing me as "Master". I have been annoyed by this practice myself..I have never claimed to be a Master..it is unfortunate that some people..are addressing me by that term.""So in fact, the purpose of my talk is to request all of you to stop addressing me as Master."
March 21, 2007 7:13 AM
Michael said...
Anonymous,Chari's quote you referenced was made in the 1987-88 timeframe. I was there and remember it well. At that time he was wooing people like SA Sarnad and Kasturi to support his presidency. I would not be suprised if this comment occured when Sarnad was present during one of the trips that he accompanied Chari to the US. If it wasn't Sarnad, present during that talk, I can assure you that there were plenty of other senior preceptors present from Babuji's days. These more senior preceptors were willing to accept Chari's presidency, but were too close to having experienced Babuji to accept Chari as a successor and Master. I contend that this comment was not actually directed to the abhyasis who called him Master. They continued to do so after this speech, and he continued to allow it. This comment was directed to the senior preceptors from Babuji's time as an effort to gain their support and backing during this transitional period fraught with legal challenges, death threats, etc..He is refered to as Master on his official website today, and I don't believe you will find any such comments requesting that his disciples refrain from calling him Master, for the last 10 years.Michael
March 21, 2007 6:15 PM
Anonymous said...
"we then reach the "acceptance" level of these words in sentences to convey the "information" in "Information" packets"That's where danger arises, for one is no more attentive to the content of the information packets and uses the packets in an automatic way. That's where manipulation can start."When the Mission "frees" it's abhyasis to "read" the blogs and other sources of info on the Internet"This is not exactly what they did. They apparently adopted an open position, but they first used their usual manipulative tricks to ensure that people will be suspiscious with the information they will find on blogs (coming from people at different stages of their development). They have no choice. If they forbid, it will not prevent people to discover information when they make searches on internet about the Sahaj Marg. So they had to make an announcement. But it is not to be understood as an opening attitude. As I said, they still have a pain in the ass."That is why I like Raja Yoga, the yoga of the MIND"You are too much centered on the mind Don, go back (down?) in the heart..."Do we want to reach the ONE "fighting""Personnaly, I only want to make the path clear to reach truth and if I need to be agressive with these people I do not hesitate one second. Fight does not interest me however, and I do not set the problem in terms of fighting. I think that's one of the main reason why I do not follow Shashwat and that I even take some distances with discussions on other blogs (however it is recapturing me here - I will have to move somewhere else). People who participate have obviously different goals, and some of them have never been clarified to me. Why should I collaborate?"we are on a slippery slope towards the "red end" of the emotional spectrum that culminates in "violence" and war"Wars have a biological ground mainly. War is the expression of ethnical forces fighting for resources. Emotions are not enough for a war. This biological factor must be in cause as a background to get a war."The Pope was forced to give up much of his worldly political power in favour of the role of "Spritual head" of the Catholic Church"Freemasonry is fighting Christianity - with the promise to reduce it to a minimal influence, that's why the Vatican has lost power, not because the Pope wants spirituality: he really cares more about power and gold. For instance, he wears shoes which price is 10000$. He is a kind of Chari, for he also likes small and simple cottages."We have the technology, we can do it"We have no idea of what controls the world."So in fact, the purpose of my talk is to request all of you to stop addressing me as Master"So, who are the masters of Sahaj Marg? Wasn't this message published previously on this page an official text approved by the supreme central powers from Chennai Headquarters? If Chari does not want to be addressed as master, he first has to stop making the situation ambiguous. People call him master because, though he claims he is not, he creates a situation in which he is and he behaves as if he was."Chari's quote you referenced was made in the 1987-88 timeframe. I was there and remember it well. At that time he was wooing people like SA Sarnad and Kasturi to support his presidency."The guy Chari is a politics. He is a fine manipulator. He is able to say one thing and its contrary few minutes later, claiming that because he speaks to the soul of each seeker, the message has to be different and adapted to the specific needs of that seeker at that specific moment. Not only in his discourses, also in his acts. "I can assure you that there were plenty of other senior preceptors present from Babuji's days"Yes, and where are they now? All gone. Why? That's a question people must ask themselves. Chari and his people say they had a problem of ego and were not able to recognize master where he is... No other reasons? For having met some of the seniors, I can say that the ego problem is not where Chari's people claim it to be.Christian
March 21, 2007 9:29 PM
Anonymous said...
Sahaj Marg is listed in religions on this site under "s": http://www.adherents.com/index.html#GroupNameIndexAlso take a look at this page:http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.htmlChristian
March 21, 2007 10:29 PM
Anonymous said...
MICHAEL - From "Heart to Heart" by P. Rajagopalachari(p 272/3)" But some people persist in addressing me as "Master". I have been annoyed by this practice myself for two or three reasons, you see, for one thing, it has alienated me from a section of the senior abhyasis of my Master who think I have usurped some sort of position to which I am not entitled, into which I have not grown. Some of them even said that I am responsible for my Msster's untimely demise. That is one thing. The second thing is: I have never claimed to be a Master."
March 22, 2007 4:54 AM
Anonymous said...
"I have never claimed to be a Master"So! Now I understand everything.
March 22, 2007 6:34 AM
Michael said...
Anonymous,Ok so you found a later reference of Chari insisting not to be called Master. Now read the Sahaj Marg Handbook on the SRCM.ORG website. Turn to page 17 and read the last paragraph:"We present here a short biography of each of the three Masters of the system."Followed by a 2 page biograpy on Lalaji, Babuji and Chariji.If he's so upset about being called Master, then why print it in the official handbook and post in on the website.I stand by my statement that this kind of commentary from Chari, is more for the older disciples who knew Babuji than for the masses who consider and call him Master.
March 23, 2007 3:23 AM
Anonymous said...
And what to think about his disciples, who will come posting here something, then go back to Chari and call him Master?They are as crapy as their model.
March 23, 2007 4:01 AM
Anonymous said...
PS: Christian
March 23, 2007 4:02 AM
Anonymous said...
PS: Christian
March 23, 2007 4:02 AM
4d-don said...
Hi Michael and all....Maybe that's what Chariji thinks "invertendo" is...Say something that has one meaning if your "inside" and a different meaning if your "outside"...So it's the "old divide and conquer" in logic used by "cults" and "religions" ....a double image or "face"! as we used to say in "tribal" or or family-based societies. I guess that "multi-meaning logic" also applies to the new SRCM theology where "God (the MALE) can command "do not kill" for the "outsiders" to hear and "kill to obey" for the insiders, who are really only "trapped" by their "past decisions" to trust the Master, the MISSION and the METHOD..., although all "conscientious" Gurus would say "TEST (the GURU) FOREVER".The other questionnable theological statement is "God is Male, Nature is Female"...I as a male, am "IN NATURE" so Nature is part male and part Female so the symetry of his statement is gone and then I doubt the God is MALE...And if his "God" is Male the "THE ONE" IS NOT and "God" is just a "lowly" gender-based" creation of the species called "homo "simplex".as making simple mistakes about one's own "nature" is sort of "not evolved"... Most of us hear the answer from "MOTHER" NATURE as saying that NATURE is also a part of the ONE and is a SHE/HE/IT... That is TRINITY inside the ONE in terms of gender...Theres is the philosophical "all welcome regardless of ...." and then the statement on: Homosexuality that is just not true. Homosexuality is not "un-natural". We could question wether it (homosexuality) is "ab-normal", as in "not the norm". We would find approximately 7% at this time and maybe changing according to the demands of Nature and Society, but not the "individual"... That is accepting and loving of that "population", although I hate to "depersonalize people with "numbers" for the sake of agreement) Let us get back to "accepting and loving" that polulation as "people" and our brothers and sisters, which they are in reality. And the statement from Chariji that if one leaves the group, he does not take people back "in SRCM" just like he does with his "servants"...A philosophically un-evolved theory that no-one will adhere to, not even the "originator" of the philosophy. If you LOVE, you'll take back in untill "ETERNITY"... regardless of "sin" or "transgression"...There is one site in Germany that mentions the words: "Mirror-image ritual". I guess that is the same as "you see me but it is in Reality the MASTER who is before you"...Is that not a "mythology" being built in the name of a "theology"?Add to that the "erasing of Samskaras" and you have a "Relgion" with a predominant "mythology".READ ON...ONLY IF you are interested in symbology ...the rest move on please...and don't chuckle or sneer!! WE ain't scary!! lol ;-))For those who are interested in a possible significance of Babuji's "taken by Chari" ring mentionned earlier, and that had three (3) gems in three (3) rows of three for a grid of nine (9), James Clerk Maxwell, the inventor of the "electromagnetic theory" that brought us all this electronic revolution which morphed into an "information" revolution" also wrote many poems as his " quaternion algebra" came under attack for being too "new" and not understood by the "engineers" who wanted a simpler "vector" algebra....The debate to "re-write" his theory in vector algebra was finally won by the "simplers" and the "translation" if his work was finished after his death by Heavyside and Gibbs who were the main antagonists.The "quaternion algebra" is now re-surfacing because of "computer graphics" and the "space programs"...It is used mainly for (remotely) rotating objects in 3d.Here is one verse from a poem called: "To the Committee of the Caley Portrait Fund" that is available at this site http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/to-the-committee-of-the-cayley-portrait-fund/I call it by it's first line: "Oh wretched race of men, to SPACE confined..."verse three...And you, ye undevelopable scrolls!Above the host wave your emblazoned rolls,Ruled for the record of his bright inventions.Ye Cubic surfaces! by threes and ninesDraw round his camp your seven-and-twenty lines—The seal of Solomon in three dimensions.If you are interested, research the "Cubic Surfaces" for stunning graphic .. or the "seven and twenty line" on cubic surfaces for an "enigma"...and The seal of Solomon for "symbols"...(flags, numerology, magic, etc...Babuji was into "Ouspensky" the Russian mystic and his metaphysics could have involved an "esoteric" or "mystical", and not necessarily "astrological" symbology (the ring) from a debate that has been going on since the 1830's thanks to mathematicians such as "Hamilton" in Ireland and Cayley in England, then Maxwell in Scotland and even Ramanujan in India... and other multi-dimension or n...dimensions (of space)geometers.... that finally ended up in Minkowski's (Einstein's teacher) SPACETIME, placing Time as the 4d..."String Theory" is now bringing us back into a 10, or 26 dimensions of space and M-theory wants "11 dimensions" of space. Ramanujan's "functions" are part of the numeroplogical "magic" of Srting theory according to Michio Kaku in his book "Hyperspace". As an aside, we became a global temporal (TIME) species or society, in 1911 with a signal from the Eiffel Tower (France) went around the world, placing Greenwich England as longitude "0" (zero). That is very recent and is coming up to it's 100th aniversary... TIME is another illusion (imaginary or abstract)that is coming under scrutiny and is being replaced by "MOTION" in many theories that are surfacing thanks to the INTERNET...4d-don...
March 23, 2007 6:28 AM
Dear 4d-don
We are told on Elodie's Blog that "Sister" Kasturi Chaturvedi and Dinesh Kumar Saxena, grandson of Lalaji and Owner and Web-Master of the NaqshMuMRa site, are now Preceptors of Chari's SRCMtm, registered in California...can anyone confirm that?
Both had joined Chari as I had said earlier and were in his list. But Kasturi Chaturvedi ji as I said had left him after her belongings were thrown out as said earlier.
As far as Dinesh Kumar Saxena ji is concerned. He too had joined Chari as Chari promised to help him marry his daughter. Which, he did so later on hence he was with him. Now, it seems Dinesh Kumar is separating again.

Dear AB
Your question: “Mr. Navneet Kumar, I am able to imagine what happened in this “closed room”. Can you explain if this is the practical application of your spiritual theory in life?
I just narrated the incident which took place and by the person who was involved in questioning the gentleman who was the tool to Sh. Jahangirdar ji’s death. Moreover, just to bring to your notice that Sh. Jehangirdar ji did tell my father 3-4 months before his death that he knows that he will also die, like Babuji died and that was the reason that he gave the last letter of Babuji to my father during his visit to Shahjahanpur.
Out of his explanations it seems to me stated, too, that Babuji (the special personality) seemed to be unable to find out who tried to make an attempt on his life.
Babuji did know that he attempt was being made on his life. His last letter clearly states so too. He also predicted his long hospitalization, which also was true as we know that Babuji was in Hospital from September soon after coming back from Paris to April 19th 1983 (The day of his Mahasamadhi.
Moreover ,as pointed by A old abhyasi about my Aunty stating Babuji’s request of FIR before leaving to Paris also clearly states that Babuji knew what the future had store for him.
Dear M
Your Question : Is the announcement made by Anonymous on March 17th @ 11.52 pm that in July SRCM name will be changed to "Shri Rajagopala Chari Mission" genuine or some kind of wry joke?
I Agree with you, there are legal implications to it. He may not be allowed to use the same name, logo, neither use funds and properties so gathered on Name of ‘Shri Ram Chandra Mission.’ Or any other organization floated using the funds so gathered from Shri Ram Chandra Mission or Sahaj Marg. Moreso, if we take a stance he cannot publish any material of Babuji also nor use it in future.
Please I am answering this from legal point of view only. We have always conveyed to anybody approaching from his group that he should separate himself from this system given by Babuji Maharaj and open some other body which, solely runs on his name with no connection whatsoever to Shri Ram Chandra Mission or Babuji Maharaj and his Method.
We believe in ONE MASTER, ONE MISSION & ONE METHOD only, where the Master is Babuji alone, following his teachings and method laid down to achieve our spiritual goal of life.
I agree by your and Chritian’s view on opening the so called to "Shri Rajagopala Chari Mission" – NOT PRACTICALLY POSSIBLE.

Dear Aurelius.
Can you clarify this Navneet? Was Chari with Babuji when he died?
As soon as Babuji arrived at Delhi Airport, Chari just left Babuji at the Airport and went to on of Delhi’s Sr Preceptors house and later soon caught his Flight to Chennai.
My father had gone to America for his treatment, after attending the paris function. He came to know of Babuji’s illness and that he had been taken to Hospital. So he cut short his visit returned back, and then remained with Babuji till he was in the hospital.
Chari was not there at the time of Babuji’s death. But, did reach for the funeral where he did not even touch Babuji’s feet but, started holding meetings in the Ashram with his people and asked them to make him the next president even while Babuji’s Funeral was taking place.

Comment dated March 22, 2007 4:54 AM by Anonymous stated below
MICHAEL - From "Heart to Heart" by P. Rajagopalachari(p 272/3)" But some people persist in addressing me as "Master". I have been annoyed by this practice myself for two or three reasons, you see, for one thing, it has alienated me from a section of the senior abhyasis of my Master who think I have usurped some sort of position to which I am not entitled, into which I have not grown. Some of them even said that I am responsible for my Msster's untimely demise. That is one thing. The second thing is: I have never claimed to be a Master."

Lastly (I don’t know when the book was published but the above statement clearly states that Chari himself knows that allegations of Murder will come up in due course. !!!!!!
As far as the truth of Don being present at the time of Nomination of Chari is concerned. There shall soon be on net a document putforth by Chari himself to support absence of Don at the time of his Nomination.
There is one more document from the horse’s (Chari’s) mouth expected to clarify and help decide the lot of misled true seekers as what they should decide, after all this.

Navneet